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Discussion Starter #1
HI ZX Freaks.

I've decided to describe my Carb to EFI conversion story.
I'm really new here. I've bought my ZX7R two weeks ago. That's the begining of my motorcycle adventure. :)

I've found quite nice ZX7R from 1998. It's eurpean version - imported from Italy.
I've bought it as completly stock bike, exept Akrapovic exhaust (manifold and silencer).
Bike is in quite well condition. It was suffering only carb problems.

I've done lots od EFI coversions on cars, so I've decided that ii will be much more easy to put a fuel injection than playaround with carbs.

So... let's begin!

That's my sweet girl :)
I've found here in really nice condition :)









I didn't think too much... I've just bought her :)

That's the photo from our trip home :)



Haaha "Beast in a cage" >:)

Finally we've arrived home :smile2:



First day, after buying my ZX7R, I've found GSXR 750 throttle bodies in a junkyard near my home :) They were quite cheap so I bought them. I didn't do any measurment of diameters of intlet and outlet of stock carbs - I thought that I will be able to fit them with some modifications.



I was really happy that I got them with all wiring loom, injectors, fuel rail, sensors (TPS and MAP sensor) and secondary throttles.

So... I get rid of stock carbs. Without any tears I've wave my hand and I've shouted "GET LOST YOU UGLY CARBS!!!!"



Now... I've had a clear space to fit a GSXR throttle bodies.

And...



.. I was suprised that the throttle bodies fitted almost perfectly. Only 2 and 3 throttle needed to do me respacing - I've needed to increase distance between 2 and 3 TB for about 4mm.

That's the compraision... GSXR TB and stock carbs...



>:)

The plan for next weeks is to:
- fit and set-up throttles control mechanism
- prepare new wiring loom for injectors.

My plan is to use following setup on my bike.
- UMC-1 ECU from No Limits Motorsport (Megasquirt 2 with Extra code)
- 12-1 teeth trigger wheel instead stock trigger wheel
- Batch Injectors (1+4) and (2+3)
- Wasted Spark ignition with stock coils
- PWM Idle motor
- Alpha N ignition and fueling algorithm with pressure conpensation

With ongoing progress, I will try to post all updates realted to my project.

Best regards

Kuba
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Hello Milos

I will keep this thread up to date.

For now I need to make a drawing for 12-1 trigger wheel, which will fit into stock trigger wheel mounts to make it work with stock crank position sensor.
If sombody will be interested in such conversion I will post all drawing etc.
For interested in only carb to EFI conversion (with stock ignition system) I got a really simple and relatively cheap solution. :)

BR

Kuba
 

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Discussion Starter #6
It's not so difficult mod as it appears to be.
The biggest problem will be fitting fuel pump and arranging new fuel system. I think that I will go on with external pump to avoid fuel tank modification.
I know that it's a lot of work, but I'm sure that it's worth of it :)

Kuba
 

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How are you handling the lack of a cam position sensor? Batch fueling? How will will compensate for puddling if it is batch?

I am most of the way there on my ZX9R. It is much easier as the ZX9R engine is essentially the same as a Z1000. The 99 ZX9R has a cam position sensor. I'm using the Z1000 harness, CDI, pickup/star, etc., with ZX10R throttle bodies. My biggest gap was an air box, but found out the Z1000 guys use pod filters when they upgrade to ZX10R throttle bodies. I'm just now adding the external fuel pump.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
How are you handling the lack of a cam position sensor? Batch fueling? How will will compensate for puddling if it is batch?

I am most of the way there on my ZX9R. It is much easier as the ZX9R engine is essentially the same as a Z1000. The 99 ZX9R has a cam position sensor. I'm using the Z1000 harness, CDI, pickup/star, etc., with ZX10R throttle bodies. My biggest gap was an air box, but found out the Z1000 guys use pod filters when they upgrade to ZX10R throttle bodies. I'm just now adding the external fuel pump.
Yes, as a first step, or call it Evolution 1, I will use batch fueling (1+4 and 2+3) and wasted spark ignition.
For a proper cylinder trim i will use thermocouples placed in each exhaust manifold runner to make a proper injection trim (yes. batch injection with separate channel for each injector to trim them)

Can You explain what do you mean about "puddling"?

Which pump do You plan to use, I'm lookning for some to use... and most of them are quite big... :crying:

BR

Kuba
 

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Batch fueling works ok on car engines, especially with a common plenum, but RPM works against you on a motorcycle engine. It is why you find two injectors per cylinder on bikes like the newer ZX6R.

On the off-cycle cylinder, the fuel sprayed down the intake, the valves are closed, so the fuel losses suspension and falls to the bottom of the port in a puddle. When the valves open the puddle is pulled into the cylinder and cannot aerosol, so is hard to burn. It is mostly pushed out the intake and hurts economy and power. It is one of the key reasons people have not been able to get batch FI to work on a motorcycle. People who have completed it made less power that a carbed bike did.

If you could create a common plenum manifold with a single throttle body and plenum injection it could solve the issue.
 

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This is beautiful. I'd love to turn my baby into a fuel injected beast... God knows I'd rather screw around with an ECU rather than having to adjust screws on the carbs... Definitely subscribing to this thread. Keep up the awesome work, Bad One! :p
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Batch fueling works ok on car engines, especially with a common plenum, but RPM works against you on a motorcycle engine. It is why you find two injectors per cylinder on bikes like the newer ZX6R.

On the off-cycle cylinder, the fuel sprayed down the intake, the valves are closed, so the fuel losses suspension and falls to the bottom of the port in a puddle. When the valves open the puddle is pulled into the cylinder and cannot aerosol, so is hard to burn. It is mostly pushed out the intake and hurts economy and power. It is one of the key reasons people have not been able to get batch FI to work on a motorcycle. People who have completed it made less power that a carbed bike did.

If you could create a common plenum manifold with a single throttle body and plenum injection it could solve the issue.
That's completly untrue. One of the basic rules in fuel injection is to spray the fuel when the valves are closed. :) It help to vaporize the fuel, and you're avoiding overlap fuel losses... But, it's working only on low RPM. On higher RPMs when the injector opening times are getting longer, injectors stays open for 70-80% of engine cycle. So the sequential injection does not have any advantages on high RPMS.
I've done lots of cars especially Formula3 and Formula3000 cars, where engines revs higher than in motorcycles, without "puddle problems"

This is beautiful. I'd love to turn my baby into a fuel injected beast... God knows I'd rather screw around with an ECU rather than having to adjust screws on the carbs... Definitely subscribing to this thread. Keep up the awesome work, Bad One! :p
If you're interested in fuel injection conversion, I would be happy to help you!

BR

Kuba
 

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That's completly untrue. One of the basic rules in fuel injection is to spray the fuel when the valves are closed. :) It help to vaporize the fuel, and you're avoiding overlap fuel losses... But, it's working only on low RPM. On higher RPMs when the injector opening times are getting longer, injectors stays open for 70-80% of engine cycle. So the sequential injection does not have any advantages on high RPMS.
I've done lots of cars especially Formula3 and Formula3000 cars, where engines revs higher than in motorcycles, without "puddle problems"



If you're interested in fuel injection conversion, I would be happy to help you!


BR

Kuba

this is getting more & more interesting :wink2:
 

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Discussion Starter #13
this is getting more & more interesting :wink2:

Thanks!

I will try to make this thread a "DIY tutorial" for Fuel Injection conversion.
It's really not too difficult, and from my expirience it's much, much easier to properly tune EFI than play with carbs.

So... If anyone have questions about EFI... Feel free to ask. :)

BR

Kuba
 

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That's completly untrue. One of the basic rules in fuel injection is to spray the fuel when the valves are closed. :) It help to vaporize the fuel, and you're avoiding overlap fuel losses... But, it's working only on low RPM. On higher RPMs when the injector opening times are getting longer, injectors stays open for 70-80% of engine cycle. So the sequential injection does not have any advantages on high RPMS.
I've done lots of cars especially Formula3 and Formula3000 cars, where engines revs higher than in motorcycles, without "puddle problems"

BR

Kuba
I am happy to be proven wrong. I have only researched and dabbled in fuel injecting my ZX7R that I used to have. I get to cheat on my ZX9R, using all existing systems and electronics. I am sure there is another ZX7R again in my future.

I'm hoping you will have some before and after dyno numbers to dispell my theories and beliefs.

Scott
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I am happy to be proven wrong. I have only researched and dabbled in fuel injecting my ZX7R that I used to have. I get to cheat on my ZX9R, using all existing systems and electronics. I am sure there is another ZX7R again in my future.

I'm hoping you will have some before and after dyno numbers to dispell my theories and beliefs.

Scott
Yes, I will update topic with all datalogs, maps etc.

Dyno measurmets will be a last step. First of all I will make to run absolutly properly. It's a very important thing to have a engine with absolutly perfect throttle response. Acceleration enrichment and proper ignition timing on mid loads gives really impressive effects, after that engine can be "dyno tuned". That's my opinion, becuse on dyno you can do full load measurements.

I will update here every single step in this project :)

BR

Kuba
 

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That's completly untrue. One of the basic rules in fuel injection is to spray the fuel when the valves are closed. :) It help to vaporize the fuel, and you're avoiding overlap fuel losses... But, it's working only on low RPM. On higher RPMs when the injector opening times are getting longer, injectors stays open for 70-80% of engine cycle. So the sequential injection does not have any advantages on high RPMS.
I've done lots of cars especially Formula3 and Formula3000 cars, where engines revs higher than in motorcycles, without "puddle problems"



If you're interested in fuel injection conversion, I would be happy to help you!

BR

Kuba
I'd greatly appreciate any help I can get! Looks like I could get ahold of GSXR 750 throttle bodies for about $200 bucks... I'm torn between doing this and throwing a ZX10R engine in the bike... Rue it, this will be the project and mod I'll do to the engine till like the third/fourth quarter of 2016.

Yes, I will update topic with all datalogs, maps etc.

Dyno measurmets will be a last step. First of all I will make to run absolutly properly. It's a very important thing to have a engine with absolutly perfect throttle response. Acceleration enrichment and proper ignition timing on mid loads gives really impressive effects, after that engine can be "dyno tuned". That's my opinion, becuse on dyno you can do full load measurements.

I will update here every single step in this project :)

BR

Kuba
Much appreciated for your commitment to this thread/project! Most definitely want to make sure your kit is purring perfectly... Screwing around with an ECU for EFI is more user friendly by a lot... Wonder if it'd be possible to make the 7R's low end even better... :tx3:
 

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You wrote that you have also a quick / cheap version for people which think wasted spark etc is good enough. Could you throw some details in?

I also thought about converting a l modell. The usual way would be to borow a GSX-R Injection but i also heard the Injection of a ZX6 would be a good solution because the spacing should be close to perfekt. The 6 is smaller but rev`s higher. So i think it might be true...
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I'd greatly appreciate any help I can get! Looks like I could get ahold of GSXR 750 throttle bodies for about $200 bucks... I'm torn between doing this and throwing a ZX10R engine in the bike... Rue it, this will be the project and mod I'll do to the engine till like the third/fourth quarter of 2016.



Much appreciated for your commitment to this thread/project! Most definitely want to make sure your kit is purring perfectly... Screwing around with an ECU for EFI is more user friendly by a lot... Wonder if it'd be possible to make the 7R's low end even better... :tx3:
I will try to describe my another idea in separate thread. It's a idea about putting injection throttle bodies with Fuel Controller, with stock ignition. Quite easy mod.

I would rather suggest putting ZX10R engine if you want really best performance and you got proper driving skills. But modification of stock engine gives more fun and knowledge!

BR

Kuba
 

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Discussion Starter #19
You wrote that you have also a quick / cheap version for people which think wasted spark etc is good enough. Could you throw some details in?

I also thought about converting a l modell. The usual way would be to borow a GSX-R Injection but i also heard the Injection of a ZX6 would be a good solution because the spacing should be close to perfekt. The 6 is smaller but rev`s higher. So i think it might be true...
As I remeber well ZX6R got smaller diameter of throttle bodies... But it needs to be confirmed.

Yes I will try to describe how to convert a carb to with MicroSquirt or Ecumaster DET3 Fuel Implant.
Maybe during weekend I will start it.

BR

Kuba
 

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I'm torn between doing this and throwing a ZX10R engine in the bike...
Don't forget, you are in the Peoples Republic of California. They track engine numbers on the title and registration. Engine swaps technically have to go through CHP Referee Stations, and would require all smog including airbox and cat. New bored Rookie CHP officers like checking VIN and engine numbers. A swapped engine number is a confiscated bike.
 
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