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Discussion Starter #1
Personally I prefer counter steering because its easier to open the throttle with all 5 fingers vs adjusting from thumb to five mid turn..

At the track what best works for you? Anyone master both? Clearly from my picture and videos i counter steer. I know there are risks in trail breaking but are there any risks in counter steering? (Well unless you go crazy with it of course.. lol).

i'm thinking about switching up for better times.. but i doubt it will improve anything.. What do ya'll prefer?
 

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Well, for starters, it's "Trail Braking." And the obvious risk is the rider coming into a corner too hot and stomping the pedal, which causes the rear wheel to lock up and kick out. The resulting Low Side crash doesn't do too much to help your lap time, I guess.

DW
 

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The only way to negotiate corners is to countersteer. Just leaning the bike doesn't work. Push the left bar to go left. Push the right bar to go right. That is countersteering.

Trail braking involves waiting a little longer to apply the brakes to negotiate the next corner. You will get closer to the rider in front of you or increase the gap from the rider behind you. your lap times should improve also. Hard braking midcorner can endanger your health. Using the rear brake can tighten your line. Heavy front braking in midcorner can lead to a highside. Most of us learn by practicing braking points and using a little common sense when it comes to corner speeds whether entering or exiting.
 

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That is what I had all typed out, but not being a track rider I didn't want to blast it out there and be all "LOL HURR SKWIDGE YEW SEW DUMM".
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Well, for starters, it's "Trail Braking." And the obvious risk is the rider coming into a corner too hot and stomping the pedal, which causes the rear wheel to lock up and kick out. The resulting Low Side crash doesn't do too much to help your lap time, I guess.

DW
Lol I actually thought I did type trail braking... But considering I typed it through an iPhone it auto corrected my title... But anywho.. Yeah I agree... I want to get ready for WSMC in 2013 or 2014, depending on if i improve as quickly as i have this previous year... But before I do I want to "master" the most productive corner entry and exit strategy... Not just be quick..but the best (novice racers). I have that Ricky Bobby mentality, "If you ain't first, your last!"
 

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Counter steering is the only way to take a corner if you ask me. I also drag the rear brake through the first bit of the turn...not much pressure but just a little drag.
 

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Okay, I must comment. Trail braking has NOTHING to do with the rear brake in motorcycling. It is the act of SLOWLY releasing typically the front brake slowly in TRAIL as you go through the corner/turn. Excessive trail braking is what happens when you lose the front end as you see happens on occasion in professional motorcycle racing. Good grief.
Counter steering and trail braking can work IN CONJUNCTION with each other but each are ways to steer the front end of the bike (slow down or lean more). I always trail brake entering a turn at the track and many time on the street when pushing it even a little but yes, counter steering to a resultant steeper lean angle also works.
What you are thinking of with rear brake based purely on your description is maybe sliding the rear a.k.a. drifting in a four wheeled vehicle...not related to trail braking on a motorcycle. :bang head

Clark also seems to have a good grip on proper terminology. Good work Clark! :)

Flame me if you like, I got it off my chest. Carry on... :)
 

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I think what he wants to do is bring the rear of the bike into the corner alittle sideways like the pros. As for which one, my answer would be to find out if the club you do track days with have one on one instruction. The club i ride with charges 125 for the day and he is with you every time you go out. The instructor then has some class time with you after each session.
 

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How does heavy front braking lead to a high side?

And yes, trail braking is braking INTO a corner and has nothing to do with the rear brake. The idea is that you lower the front suspension so turn in is better...along with the fact that you can take more speed into the corner since you will be scrubbing it off into the corner.

I trail brake at the track, but it's one of my biggest weaknesses, well, braking in general. Something I hope to work on this coming year.
-Cody
 

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Quinton Phuckin Tarantino
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Ok here is my shot at explaining trail braking ... You brake hard while you are going in to the corner and you are still 90 degrees to the ground . When you start to turn you gradually start releasing the brakes till you hit your apex then you start gradually rolling into the throttle . The key to this is not to unsettle your suspension so basically you preload your front end going into the turn with the brakes so as the g-force of the turn takes over your suspension is already preloaded . It makes for smoother faster corners while keeping the suspension settled . Counter steer happens in every corner regardless so yes you do both on the track . Hope this was clear .
 

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Discussion Starter #11
How does heavy front braking lead to a high side?

And yes, trail braking is braking INTO a corner and has nothing to do with the rear brake. The idea is that you lower the front suspension so turn in is better...along with the fact that you can take more speed into the corner since you will be scrubbing it off into the corner.

I trail brake at the track, but it's one of my biggest weaknesses, well, braking in general. Something I hope to work on this coming year.
-Cody
I agree with you Cody.. It's not using the rear break it's the front.. Rear brake is used to tighten my lines if i go wide or need to adjust a bit..But my question really is.. Has anyone experienced better times trail braking than counter steering or vise versa?? Example Ben Spies trail brakes like a MoFo! And I think I saw Bayliss counter steering.. Decisions..... :headscratch
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Ok here is my shot at explaining trail braking ... You brake hard while you are going in to the corner and you are still 90 degrees to the ground . When you start to turn you gradually start releasing the brakes till you hit your apex then you start gradually rolling into the throttle . The key to this is not to unsettle your suspension so basically you preload your front end going into the turn with the brakes so as the g-force of the turn takes over your suspension is already preloaded . It makes for smoother faster corners while keeping the suspension settled . Counter steer happens in every corner regardless so yes you do both on the track . Hope this was clear .
You explained it exactly how I know it... SuperBike school with Keith Code says that breaking should be done before you reach the turn. And other schools say you should always trail brake when good enough... And they are both very strict about it... So that's where the question comes in which is quicker?
 

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I'm not sure if you're getting your terms confused....but EVERYONE counter steers. Trail braking is an acquired skill that comes with time. Everyone who is fast trail brakes.
-Cody
 

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I would just like to say, I have no real clue as to what you guys are talking about, but please keep explaining, so as to one day I will have a clue!
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Okay, I must comment. Trail braking has NOTHING to do with the rear brake in motorcycling. It is the act of SLOWLY releasing typically the front brake slowly in TRAIL as you go through the corner/turn. Excessive trail braking is what happens when you lose the front end as you see happens on occasion in professional motorcycle racing. Good grief.
Counter steering and trail braking can work IN CONJUNCTION with each other but each are ways to steer the front end of the bike (slow down or lean more). I always trail brake entering a turn at the track and many time on the street when pushing it even a little but yes, counter steering to a resultant steeper lean angle also works.
What you are thinking of with rear brake based purely on your description is maybe sliding the rear a.k.a. drifting in a four wheeled vehicle...not related to trail braking on a motorcycle. :bang head

Clark also seems to have a good grip on proper terminology. Good work Clark! :)

Flame me if you like, I got it off my chest. Carry on... :)
Very good point. I do know you can use them for both but school tells me all braking should be done before the corner... I'm about to just say f*** it and use both... Lol.. :banghead
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I'm not sure if you're getting your terms confused....but EVERYONE counter steers. Trail braking is an acquired skill that comes with time. Everyone who is fast trail brakes.
-Cody
That I do know... It's just hard to explain them both together and seperate in just a title... Lol.. Not to mention typing on my cell phone that's slow as dirt that lags... Lol
 

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I'm not sure if you're getting your terms confused....but EVERYONE counter steers. Trail braking is an acquired skill that comes with time. Everyone who is fast trail brakes.
-Cody
I concur! Trail braking is a "learned" trait for most, some people have a natural "gift" to do it right off ........it really comes with time, confidence and patience.


I would just like to say, I have no real clue as to what you guys are talking about, but please keep explaining, so as to one day I will have a clue!
*in his best Yoda imitation*

Young Padawan, one day you too can master these things ... :smile
 

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Quinton Phuckin Tarantino
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You explained it exactly how I know it... SuperBike school with Keith Code says that breaking should be done before you reach the turn. And other schools say you should always trail brake when good enough... And they are both very strict about it... So that's where the question comes in which is quicker?
As stated in other posts you always use countersteer you don't always trail brake . Countersteer is simply using your handlebars in the opposite direction at high speed as you use at low speed for example when you turn left you lean left and put slight pressure pulling back on the right clipon to help "pull" the bike down into the corner . Most people do this naturally without even thinking about it to some extent so you would actually do both in a corner but not one or the other imho.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
As stated in other posts you always use countersteer you don't always trail brake . Countersteer is simply using your handlebars in the opposite direction at high speed as you use at low speed for example when you turn left you lean left and put slight pressure pulling back on the right clipon to help "pull" the bike down into the corner . Most people do this naturally without even thinking about it to some extent so you would actually do both in a corner but not one or the other imho.
I feel ya... I'm probably just going to use it based on the circumstances... Example; Big Willow. After first lap top speed 1/4 mile straight entering turn 1.
 

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Quinton Phuckin Tarantino
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I feel ya... I'm probably just going to use it based on the circumstances... Example; Big Willow. After first lap top speed 1/4 mile straight entering turn 1.
Sounds like a good place to me but you will find more :crazyloco. As with most racing techniques learn multiple ways of doing it and learn where to use it . If you watch the pros they usually use more back brakes to pass another rider , they come into the corner hot then use the rear brake to kind of slide around the other rider ( not always but they do it ) . This can turn out really bad if you don't know what your doing so most schools won't teach it .
 
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