ZX12 vs ZX14 - Page 5 - ZX Forums
 26Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #81 of 112 (permalink) Old 12-29-2017, 04:00 PM
Senior Member
 
JBear's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2008
From: New England
I Ride: 'o5 Widowmaker

Posts: 13,278
HA! Touche

ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!
JBear is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #82 of 112 (permalink) Old 12-30-2017, 05:13 AM
Senior Member
 
Hammerhead's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
From: Southern Illinois
I Ride: '07 ZX-14

Posts: 12,980
Quote:
Originally Posted by olajoe808 View Post
What people new to owning a motorcycle should do if they haven't already is take a small engine repair class. Then pick up a small engine open it up and become familiar with how it ticks. In the long run it can amount to greater enjoyment in having the knowledge, and skill to do the maintenance on your terms and time. There's a certain satisfaction in knowing what's between your legs. I've said this before perhaps it's worth a repeat. With all the hp in the world there's one contender you lose sight of and there's no amount going to help.

A high-school physics class wouldn't hurt. either.

You can flip any formula back and forth on one side or the other of the = sign, but it doesn't change a thing.p if you can't get it.

Years ago, at the local bike drags, a 500cc Vincent Comet engine in a laydown frame put all the Japanese 4-cylinder machines on the trailer. It didn't do it with superior horsepower because it didn't have it. It did it with superior torque. And nor necessarily MORE torque, just more torque earlier in the rev range. In this case, horsepower didn't mean shit, must less being the only thing that mattered, It really didn't matter at all.

It may be a pig, but it's a pig with a rocket in it's ass!
Hammerhead is offline  
post #83 of 112 (permalink) Old 12-31-2017, 10:41 AM
Member
 
Joined: May 2016
From: Denver, CO
I Ride: 2015 ZX14R

Posts: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerhead View Post
OK, simply put, torque can exist without movement but horsepower (work) cannot. Torque+movement (rpm) produces horsepower.

So to say torque means nothing or less compared to horsepower is ludicrous. Horsepower cannot exist without torque.


What??? A 75W light bulb is 0.1HP. I guess you could argue the electrons are moving but there is no torque. Torque exists for us because are engines rotate. Some propulsion does not rotate and therefore doesnít have a torque value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnboat View Post
Torque is a number to relate to how much work something can do... horsepower is how fast can it do that work... to win races, you need both.. enough torque to move your ride down the track, and enough hp to do it in a timely manner...



J

Torque is just a rotational force. It doesnít specify how much work (energy) something can do...


Let me illustrate my point. My 1500kg car can accelerate at 1g (on average). Assuming no losses, how much average torque do I make? How much HP do I make?
TurboTJ is offline  
post #84 of 112 (permalink) Old 12-31-2017, 03:11 PM
Senior Member
 
Hammerhead's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
From: Southern Illinois
I Ride: '07 ZX-14

Posts: 12,980
A light bulb has no horsepower. The formula you are referring to, which is the relationship between watts and horsepower is for electric motors, not light bulbs. Torque is a factor in any calculation of horsepower. Basic physics.

When you torque a bolt or nut with a torque wrench, as you reach the proper torque, you stop pulling the wrench harder and hold it. This is a simple example of torque without motion. Horsepower needs motion (rotation) to exist. Unless your horses are resting.
johnboat likes this.

It may be a pig, but it's a pig with a rocket in it's ass!
Hammerhead is offline  
post #85 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-01-2018, 04:48 AM
Senior Member
 
JBear's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2008
From: New England
I Ride: 'o5 Widowmaker

Posts: 13,278
HP is an archaic and ridiculous way to measure work. I prefer to rate things in monkeypower.

ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!
JBear is offline  
post #86 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-01-2018, 07:14 AM
EZ Rider
 
185EZ's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2008
From: Lake Havasu City,AZ USA
I Ride: 2014 ZX14R

Posts: 58,290
Garage
hp vs tq
RLB1100 likes this.

December 2011 ROTM winner



Quote:
Originally Posted by massa222000 View Post
YOU'RE F - KING AWESOME!!!
185EZ is offline  
post #87 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-01-2018, 01:44 PM
Newbie
 
Joined: Nov 2017

Posts: 9
Torque = moving chit
HP= how fast you move chit
Zx14r = moving chit very fast!

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
blueskys2night1 is offline  
post #88 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-01-2018, 05:06 PM
Member
 
Joined: May 2016
From: Denver, CO
I Ride: 2015 ZX14R

Posts: 53
QUOTE=Hammerhead;4001370]A light bulb has no horsepower. The formula you are referring to, which is the relationship between watts and horsepower is for electric motors, not light bulbs. [/QUOTE]

This is ludicrous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerhead View Post
A light bulb has no horsepower. The formula you are referring to, which is the relationship between watts and horsepower is for electric motors, not light bulbs. Torque is a factor in any calculation of horsepower. Basic physics.



When you torque a bolt or nut with a torque wrench, as you reach the proper torque, you stop pulling the wrench harder and hold it. This is a simple example of torque without motion. Horsepower needs motion (rotation) to exist. Unless your horses are resting.


Power is power. HP is work done per unit time, just like Watts or even Joules per second (I.e. power). These arenít special equations only applicable to electric motors. In fact, this may blow your mind, but as you do work over time (like walk upstairs), you are creating HP (or Watts, if you prefer). Crazy, right??

A light bulb uses horsepower or Watts or whatever units you prefer. This is like saying lbs (pounds mass) arenít weight, only kilograms are weight. Watts are power and HP is power. They both refer to work per unit time.


Some equations for you:

Work = force x distance
Power = (force x distance)/time = work/time


You are right that torque doesnít require rotation to exist...

We are getting off topic so letís try another example. I have a 1HP electric motor lifting an elevator weighing 1000kg. How fast can I lift the elevator? How much torque do I need?

Again, you will see that torque doesnít show up in any of the equations.

I hate to pull this card, but I should mention that I have a graduate degree in engineering and design these systems daily. Of course this doesnít mean I canít be wrong but hopefully it gives me some credibility :-)
TurboTJ is offline  
post #89 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-01-2018, 06:37 PM
Senior Member
 
JBear's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2008
From: New England
I Ride: 'o5 Widowmaker

Posts: 13,278
That reminds me of something my Dad said once while I was growing up. My great-grandfather was a Baptist minister, lived to be ninety-something. Outlived three wives, which is neither here nor there. Regardless, he read encyclopedias like novels, and Bibles like encyclopedias. Literally wore the damn things right out, stack of Bibles just falling apart from all the reading, studying, outlining and note-taking. One day, I forget what I was asking him about, but my Dad's response- talking about his grandfather- was that he was "so spiritually minded that he was no earthly good". So it goes.
johnboat likes this.

ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!
JBear is offline  
post #90 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-02-2018, 05:54 AM
Newbie
 
Joined: Oct 2016

Posts: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueskys2night1 View Post
Torque = moving chit
HP= how fast you move chit
Zx14r = moving chit very fast!

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
Finally, a comment that sums things up. ;-)

ominousone
ominousone is offline  
post #91 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-02-2018, 06:10 AM
Senior Member
 
Hammerhead's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
From: Southern Illinois
I Ride: '07 ZX-14

Posts: 12,980
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboTJ View Post
QUOTE=Hammerhead;4001370]A light bulb has no horsepower. The formula you are referring to, which is the relationship between watts and horsepower is for electric motors, not light bulbs.
This is ludicrous.





Power is power. HP is work done per unit time, just like Watts or even Joules per second (I.e. power). These arenít special equations only applicable to electric motors. In fact, this may blow your mind, but as you do work over time (like walk upstairs), you are creating HP (or Watts, if you prefer). Crazy, right??

A light bulb uses horsepower or Watts or whatever units you prefer. This is like saying lbs (pounds mass) arenít weight, only kilograms are weight. Watts are power and HP is power. They both refer to work per unit time.


Some equations for you:

Work = force x distance
Power = (force x distance)/time = work/time


You are right that torque doesnít require rotation to exist...

We are getting off topic so letís try another example. I have a 1HP electric motor lifting an elevator weighing 1000kg. How fast can I lift the elevator? How much torque do I need?

Again, you will see that torque doesnít show up in any of the equations.

I hate to pull this card, but I should mention that I have a graduate degree in engineering and design these systems daily. Of course this doesnít mean I canít be wrong but hopefully it gives me some credibility :-)[/QUOTE]


And now back to electric motors where power is converted to watts. Before you can do that, you need to calculate horsepower and convert. Still requires a torque measurement. Convert the watts to horsepower and you're back to square one; Torque is the force behind horsepower. No horsepower without torque.The opposite is not true as you have admitted torque can exist without hp. I'm done beating this dead horse that has no power because it can generate no torque.
johnboat likes this.

It may be a pig, but it's a pig with a rocket in it's ass!
Hammerhead is offline  
post #92 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-02-2018, 06:12 AM
Senior Member
 
Hammerhead's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
From: Southern Illinois
I Ride: '07 ZX-14

Posts: 12,980
And please tell me what work a light bulb does. Work involves motion, or are you going to argue work is everything and motion is meaningless?
johnboat likes this.

It may be a pig, but it's a pig with a rocket in it's ass!
Hammerhead is offline  
post #93 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-02-2018, 04:03 PM
Senior Member
 
JBear's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2008
From: New England
I Ride: 'o5 Widowmaker

Posts: 13,278
HH, as a flaming liberal I am surprised by your lack of adherence to post-modernist philosophy.

I KID! I kid. Seriously, drunk post.

ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!
JBear is offline  
post #94 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-04-2018, 06:30 AM
Member
 
Joined: May 2016
From: Denver, CO
I Ride: 2015 ZX14R

Posts: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerhead View Post
And please tell me what work a light bulb does. Work involves motion, or are you going to argue work is everything and motion is meaningless?


Great question. In this case work is in the transfer of energy from one form to another (heat and light). A light bulb is a sink, just like an electric motor. It takes in power for this conversion.

A 75 watt lightbulb does 75 Joules of work per second. A joule is a unit of work and in this case is expressed as a Coulomb times a volt.

This light could also be said to be using 0.1HP.
TurboTJ is offline  
post #95 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-05-2018, 04:39 AM
Senior Member
 
johnboat's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2016
From: Houston
I Ride: ZX11d Current... had 1984 GPz1100

Posts: 638
Alright guys... going to put this debate to bed... my old mechanic explained torque to me back in 1985, while putting a crank in my old GPz 1100... he said, " You know when you wake up early in the morning, after a night of drinking beer at the bar and later having sex with the cute little bartender chick, and you stumble into her bathroom to do that early morning piss, but have that early morning wood... since you just met her you don't want to piss into her shower stall, so you stand in front of the toilet and try your best to push it down towards the toilet opening, only to have your feet slide backwards instead....? That is torque my friend..."

Best mechanic I ever met...coke bottle glasses, but had my crank in and bike running by lunch time...

J
blueskys2night1 likes this.
johnboat is offline  
post #96 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-05-2018, 12:16 PM
Senior Member
 
olajoe808's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2017

Posts: 350


Last edited by olajoe808; 01-05-2018 at 12:21 PM.
olajoe808 is offline  
post #97 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-06-2018, 02:45 AM
Newbie
 
Joined: Nov 2017

Posts: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnboat View Post
Alright guys... going to put this debate to bed... my old mechanic explained torque to me back in 1985, while putting a crank in my old GPz 1100... he said, " You know when you wake up early in the morning, after a night of drinking beer at the bar and later having sex with the cute little bartender chick, and you stumble into her bathroom to do that early morning piss, but have that early morning wood... since you just met her you don't want to piss into her shower stall, so you stand in front of the toilet and try your best to push it down towards the toilet opening, only to have your feet slide backwards instead....? That is torque my friend..."

Best mechanic I ever met...coke bottle glasses, but had my crank in and bike running by lunch time...

J
This bike pulls better than when I was 14........r

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
blueskys2night1 is offline  
post #98 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-08-2018, 01:16 PM
Senior Member
 
Hammerhead's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
From: Southern Illinois
I Ride: '07 ZX-14

Posts: 12,980
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBear View Post
HH, as a flaming liberal I am surprised by your lack of adherence to post-modernist philosophy.

I KID! I kid. Seriously, drunk post.
I am a social liberal and a fiscal conservative. Party on, but pay the phuckin bills.

Going out now to find some high-horsepower lightbulbs. My can lights are way too slow.

It may be a pig, but it's a pig with a rocket in it's ass!
Hammerhead is offline  
post #99 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-08-2018, 04:37 PM
Senior Member
 
JBear's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2008
From: New England
I Ride: 'o5 Widowmaker

Posts: 13,278
Hahaha! I was so drunk I forgot I posted that. But not so drunk that I don't remember. That was why I was kidding- I never believed you were a flaming liberal.

ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!
JBear is offline  
post #100 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-08-2018, 05:27 PM
Senior Member
 
Hammerhead's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
From: Southern Illinois
I Ride: '07 ZX-14

Posts: 12,980
I've been called worse.

It may be a pig, but it's a pig with a rocket in it's ass!
Hammerhead is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the ZX Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
zx9 vs gsxr 750 vs cbr 1000 vs R1 flubyu ZX-9R Forum 11 05-06-2011 05:28 PM
zx14 vs zx12 vs zx10 zx6r ZX-14 Forum 31 06-20-2010 02:38 PM
2010 Literbike Shootout: RSV4 R vs S1000RR vs CBR1000RR vs ZX-10R admin ZX Forums News 22 04-30-2010 10:30 AM
2008 Supersport Shootout: CBR600RR vs Daytona 675 vs ZX-6R vs R6 vs GSX-R600 admin ZX Forums News 1 08-06-2008 08:48 PM
Superbike Vs Sportbike Vs Tourer Vs Cruiser Dup General Discussion 4 04-30-2007 11:21 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome