Possible clutch problem? - ZX Forums
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-20-2019, 07:11 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
M.Rad.'s Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2016
From: Austin, Tx
I Ride: 1996 ZX11, CR500, DR370

Posts: 171
Garage
Possible clutch problem?

Hi Guys, yesterday I experiences what may be a clutch slippage issue, although I'm not certain at the moment.

Here's what happened- I decided to run it up through the gears since the road was empty and conditions were right. As I got to about 9,000 (full throttle) in second gear I could hear the engine speed up, without an accompanying surge of acceleration. Same thing in 3rd gear.
There is no other sign of clutch slippage in any other gear, at any other rpm at full throttle.

Now, I don't usually rev it out that high under full throttle. I don't abuse my machinery (no clutch dumps, no clutch-up wheelies, no bouncing off the rev limiter, etc).

Another, but less likely possibility, is that my old rear tire (about 5yrs) is spinning/slipping as the engine hits full chat- which coincidentally is right about 9,000 rpm? Remember, I have the ZZR1200 engine transplant...

I'm working 12+ hrs a day now so my time is non-existent and I can't easily do the normal diagnostics (examine ouil and filter, pull and inspect clutch).

Thoughts?

Regards,
M.Rad.

"If it ain't broke-don't break it!"
M.Rad. is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-20-2019, 01:41 PM
Member
 
Joined: Oct 2012
From: Ohio
I Ride: 06 ZX14, 77 XS650, 04 ST3, 87 EX500, 81 R100, 77 R100/7

Posts: 32
No, your tire isnít spinning, your clutch is slipping. As an old fart who has worn out a few clutches, this is exactly how it goes.
Gs1327 is offline  
post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-21-2019, 06:44 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
M.Rad.'s Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2016
From: Austin, Tx
I Ride: 1996 ZX11, CR500, DR370

Posts: 171
Garage
Yeah, was afraid of that, although I am riding on "bowling balls". Now I just have to make time for a clutch job. May be a while, but I'll take pics as usual and post observations.

Regards,
M.Rad.

"If it ain't broke-don't break it!"
M.Rad. is offline  
 
post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-21-2019, 09:32 PM
Member
 
PACABADA's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2010
From: Santa Paula, CA

Posts: 65
Quite a few years ago my clutch slipped once in awhile also and I cant remember at what rpm and was thinking oh boy, gonna need a clutch.
Well, same original clutch with 114,000 miles and it's not slipped for along time and it will still lift the front wheel in 1st gear so I wouldn't worry about it since you dont red line it everyday. Dont ask me how or why, no idea except I do run conventional Shell Rotella T4 oil which may be the reason.

Paul

96 ZX-11 Dark Green
76 KZ900LTD B1
03 Ducati ST4s
15 Triumph Street Triple RX
PACABADA is offline  
post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-22-2019, 06:42 AM
Newbie
 
buckshot's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2010
From: Newmarket, Ontario, Canada
I Ride: 1999 ZX-11 D7

Posts: 21
I wouldn't discount the old rear tire! At 5 years of age, the rubber has likely got much harder than a new tire. It really doesn't make any difference how much tread is left since that is only there for water dispersion. Also, it goes without saying that a cold tire has far less grip than a warm tire. Just watch all the efforts put into warming up tires prior to the start of a race. You likely aren't dealing with the sub-standard spring riding conditions that we have right now in southern Ontario (cool temperatures, cool pavement and lots of fine debris still on the roads from winter salt/sand applications. On my bike, she has a huge increase in horsepower in the upper ranges that easily overpowers the rear tire this time of year so I have to drive extra carefully until the rains clean off the surfaces and the pavement gets considerable warmer.

Tires are something I'd never cheap out on which is tough for a Scotsman! Install a nice fresh set of tires first before anything else then go out and try the exact same power application on the same stretch of road. You might be pleasantly surprised!

Buckshot
buckshot is offline  
post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-22-2019, 06:05 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
M.Rad.'s Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2016
From: Austin, Tx
I Ride: 1996 ZX11, CR500, DR370

Posts: 171
Garage
Thanks for the replies guys. I really don't think it's spinning the tire, although the power increase at high rpm is certainly impressive! And I agree, my "bowling balls" are due for replacement soon.

Pacabada touched on something that may be related to what is happening.

After the engine transplant, I put in the STP brand 10-30 oil and a new filter. It is the Autozone "House brand" oil now and relatively cheap.
It may well be inferior in some way to the Rotella or specialty motorcycle oils and causing the slippage. I only have 1400 miles on the oil, but it's a cheap experiment to run by changing it.

I know from experience that some oils work better in some machines than other oils. As an example, my wife's BMW 740i has a 4.4L DOHC V-8 that has a known issue with noisy timing chain tensioners. I used several different (high quality) oil brands, all with the specified viscosity and the chain would rattle alarmingly on start-up. I switched to Mobile-1 in 0-30wt and have had no further issues.

So my plan is to change the oil and filter soon, and use the Rotella T4 and see what happens.
And darn-it-all, now I'll HAVE to red-line it! Hey it's for science!

Regards,
M.Rad.

"If it ain't broke-don't break it!"
M.Rad. is offline  
post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 03:10 AM
Newbie
 
Joined: Nov 2009
From: gRAND RAPIDS MI

Posts: 7
What did you figure out? Im looking for answers for my bike too but can't get a reply. It's a 97 zx900. When it gets warmed up it doesn't want to move it will rev up, shift normal, but only goes 5-10mph. I can leave the clutch out all the way and it won't even jump or turn off. The clutch n friction plates look good!? But the oil was black and liquid& makes me think it's car oil. Keep in mind when it's cold the bike shifts and drives normal!
BLackice2242 is offline  
post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-27-2019, 04:05 AM
Newbie
 
Joined: Oct 2018
From: Ireland
I Ride: ZZR1100

Posts: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by M.Rad. View Post
After the engine transplant, I put in the STP brand 10-30 oil and a new filter. It is the Autozone "House brand" oil now and relatively cheap.
SAE 30 may be a bit light. The ZZR/ZX 1100 manual specifies a minimum of 40 and a maximum
of 50. 10W-40, 10W-50, 20W-40 and 20W-50 are listed as suitable. As 15W-40 and 15W-50
fall within the required range, they should also be suitable.

I can't find much information about the STP 10W-30. The packaging says it contains
"anti wear additives". As STP are one of the biggest suppliers of friction reducing
oil additives, it is quite likely they use such additives in their own brand of oil.
Perhaps you have found one of those rare cases where using car oil actually
does cause clutch slip :)

Quote:
So my plan is to change the oil and filter soon....
I would do that sooner rather than later. A slipping clutch will cook the
plates fairly quickly. Remove both drain plugs when draining the oil.

Quote:
...and use the Rotella T4 and see what happens.
15W-40 formulated for Diesels. Should be fine in the bike.

Rotella T6 5W-40 synthetic is specified as meeting JASO MA or MA2
standards for compatibility with wet clutches. Unfortunately, it is not
available here in Europe, but can be bought for a reasonable price on
your side of the pond.
ZXT10D is offline  
post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-27-2019, 07:59 AM
Senior Member
 
quisp's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2012
From: florida

Posts: 847
Anything with an energy conservation star will cause problems , The heavier weights won't have that .
quisp is offline  
post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-28-2019, 07:52 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
M.Rad.'s Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2016
From: Austin, Tx
I Ride: 1996 ZX11, CR500, DR370

Posts: 171
Garage
BLackice2242- Nothing yet, haven't had time to do the oil change, or ride for that matter. But your situation sounds quite a bit more severe than mine. I doubt an oil change alone will solve it...

ZXT10D& quisp- The STP oil doesn't appear to have any special additives included. I bought it specifically because it is a "basic" oil, and I used it during the winter months (well, as winter as it gets here) since my temp gauge never moved past the first line. I intended to change it anyway once the weather warmed up.

But as to oil weight -vs- clutch holding power, I'm wondering... Does a slightly thinner oil allow the plates to engage more quickly, and more positively? This would seem to allow better holding power... Maybe?

I'm switching to the Rotella regardless, but just kinda wondering now that were talking about it.

EDIT: changed oil this evening to Rotella T4 15W40. Will ride it a few times before running the upper rpm experiment, and will report what develops.

Regards,
M.Rad.

"If it ain't broke-don't break it!"

Last edited by M.Rad.; 04-28-2019 at 07:14 PM.
M.Rad. is offline  
post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-02-2019, 05:24 AM
Senior Member
 
johnboat's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2016
From: Houston
I Ride: ZX11d Current... had 1984 GPz1100

Posts: 638
Also, check to see if your clutch master cylinder is full of dirty fluid and can cause the clutch to not release...almost as if you were holding in the clutch lever a bit.... mine did this and I swore it was the clutch slipping, but wasn't. The insides of the reservoir was gummed up and not letting the pressure release....cleaned reservoir out and flushed everything with new DOT 5 fluid....fixed it right up...

Johnny
johnboat is offline  
post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-02-2019, 12:03 PM
Senior Member
 
Joined: Apr 2011
From: Central TX
I Ride: ZRX 1200 & 93 ZX11

Posts: 173
Iím a little late to this party. Iíd definitely change the oil. Iíve seen this before on several bikes.

I use only motorcycle specific oil. The only clutches that Iíve had slip had something other than bike oil. I also donít ever use synthetic in the bikes.

Iím just down the road in New Braunfels.
danoh1 is offline  
post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-02-2019, 01:41 PM
Senior Member
 
Blainethemono's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2010
From: Seattle, WA
I Ride: 93 ZX-11, 82 CB900F, 79 XS650*SOLD*

Posts: 3,405
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnboat View Post
Also, check to see if your clutch master cylinder is full of dirty fluid and can cause the clutch to not release...almost as if you were holding in the clutch lever a bit.... mine did this and I swore it was the clutch slipping, but wasn't. The insides of the reservoir was gummed up and not letting the pressure release....cleaned reservoir out and flushed everything with new DOT 5 fluid....fixed it right up...

Johnny
Excellent point. One day out of the blue my clutch started acting up and I couldnt figure out why, until I looked in my reservoir!!

Clutch Fluid had turned to PASTE!!! PASTE, I tell you!!!

Jeremiah 9:3~9

ďThey make ready their tongue
like a bow, to shoot lies;
it is not by truth
that they triumph in the land.
They go from one sin to another;
they do not acknowledge me,Ē
declares the Lord.
Blainethemono is offline  
post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-02-2019, 07:15 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
M.Rad.'s Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2016
From: Austin, Tx
I Ride: 1996 ZX11, CR500, DR370

Posts: 171
Garage
Hi johnboat! Great to hear from you! Good suggestion from you and Blainethemono, but sadly -no.

During my installation of the Concours bars I disassembled and cleaned the master cylinder, slave cylinder, clutch line and poured in fresh, clean, nectar o' the gods DOT4. Bleeding the system was a snap. The actual clutch actuation system works super, with great feel and positive engagement. There isn't any detectable slippage under full throttle anywhere below 9,000rpm.

danoh1, late or not thanks for showing up neighbor! As I said in my post edit, I made time to change the oil to the Rotella 15W40. I've only ridden it for a short hop since. I'm going to wait until I've put about 100 mi. on the new oil before testing to see if the slippage is still there. That should give the plates enough time and engagement cycles to flush out any traces of the old oil.

The oil I drained out didn't have any metallic particles or burnt smell, which is always a good sign too.

I can say that the clunky N-1st, and 1st-2nd shift is somewhat less clunky with the thicker Rotella, and my hot oil pressure is up by about 5-6psi. so those are all to the plus side of the ledger.

Next ride wont be until this coming week, due to weather, obligations, etc. but I'm looking forward to filing a report either way.

Regards,
M.Rad.

"If it ain't broke-don't break it!"
M.Rad. is offline  
post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-09-2019, 07:47 AM
Senior Member
 
johnboat's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2016
From: Houston
I Ride: ZX11d Current... had 1984 GPz1100

Posts: 638
You should ONLY use the oil that is specifically for 4 stroke motorcycle engines.
johnboat is offline  
post #16 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-10-2019, 11:33 PM
Member
 
PACABADA's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2010
From: Santa Paula, CA

Posts: 65
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_Rotella_T

As stated the Rotella T4 and T6 oils have become popular since they fall in the JASO MA standards and they're also half the cost. I change every 3K. No problems as of yet with thousands of miles with both oils.
Wikipedia isnt always correct but they're correct reporting on this.
Hope it works for him.

Paul

96 ZX-11 Dark Green
76 KZ900LTD B1
03 Ducati ST4s
15 Triumph Street Triple RX
PACABADA is offline  
post #17 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-13-2019, 04:54 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
M.Rad.'s Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2016
From: Austin, Tx
I Ride: 1996 ZX11, CR500, DR370

Posts: 171
Garage
Hi guys! I've managed to put a couple hundred miles on the bike since the oil change/switch and have run it up to redline in both 1st and 2nd with no noticeable slippage. I suppose third and fourth would be the better test, but that will involve some planning.

I'm satisfied for the present since it was in second gear that the slippage was most noticeable previously. Looks like the Shell Rotella did the trick!

I'll report when I've had a chance to ride down to Mexico to do a 3rd and 4th gear test

Regards,
M.Rad.

"If it ain't broke-don't break it!"
M.Rad. is offline  
post #18 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 09:54 PM
Member
 
PACABADA's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2010
From: Santa Paula, CA

Posts: 65
Good to hear!!

Paul

96 ZX-11 Dark Green
76 KZ900LTD B1
03 Ducati ST4s
15 Triumph Street Triple RX
PACABADA is offline  
post #19 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 04:23 AM
Newbie
 
Joined: Oct 2018
From: Ireland
I Ride: ZZR1100

Posts: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by M.Rad. View Post
Hi guys! I've managed to put a couple hundred miles on the bike since the oil change/switch and have run it up to redline in both 1st and 2nd with no noticeable slippage.
Glad you got sorted.

Do you still have the bottle for that STP oil? I would be interested to
know if the API label is marked ENERGY or RESOURCE CONSERVING,
+RC, +EC...

I found some info on the 5W-20 version here:
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forum...Synthetic_Oil?

Front of the bottle says: "ANTI-WEAR ADDITIVES". The back says:
"Friction Modifier - Reduces engine wear while maintaining economy".

The API label shows: SN RESOURCE CONSERVING

If the 10W-30 has similar markings, it would be a bad choice for use
with a wet clutch.
ZXT10D is offline  
post #20 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-17-2019, 04:17 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
M.Rad.'s Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2016
From: Austin, Tx
I Ride: 1996 ZX11, CR500, DR370

Posts: 171
Garage
I'll check when I go to the store next time, although I don't remember it being marked like that. But that's what happens when one is in a hurry- you miss things. These days I'm constantly in a rush due to the new job, so it's entirely possible that I missed it.

Fortunately it doesn't appear to have caused any permanent damage since it wasn't in there very long and I don't abuse the clutch anyway.

On a side note, the engine oil pressure is very good. As some of you know, I installed a line in the main oil gallery and a gauge at the bars so I can easily monitor it. When at operating temp, it is about 3-4psi @ 900rpm (idle) and 60psi @ 4,500rpm (~70mph).

I encourage everyone to do this simple installation. It gives a good indication of engine condition and it's fun to watch!

Regards,
M.Rad.

"If it ain't broke-don't break it!"
M.Rad. is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the ZX Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ninja 636 possible immobiliser problem? RUDD Mechanical & Technical 3 06-01-2012 09:15 AM
Possible idling and throttle cable problem. hotsho111 Mechanical & Technical 7 06-01-2011 05:40 AM
possible clutch problem wizzer71 Mechanical & Technical 4 09-16-2009 11:06 AM
Possible valve train problem....??? 07zx6Guy ZX-6R Forum 16 01-22-2009 04:22 PM
possible problem, 2006 zx6r please help jason bouchard ZX-6R Forum 8 08-12-2007 10:56 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome