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Old 02-18-2010, 11:58 AM   #1 (permalink)
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01 zx7r carb tunning (dead horse)

sorry to beat a dead horse but here is the deal with my 01 zx7r fighter. bike sat for a year while it was being built. just recently completed it and now trying to work out all the bugs. i Pulled the carbs cleaned them, eye synched them (will synch them with a home made synch tool once i get the mixture right) set the floats to the factory 13mm and have my mixture screws at 2.5 turn outs. bike pulls hard above 3-4k and idles fine but has hesitation from idle to 3-4k. the carbs have stock jets and everything else, bike has a k&n, new NGKs and an M4 slip on i welded into the stock header.

from reading the factory pro website tips i'm thinking i need to fine tune my float height correct?! i'm thinking i'm running rich at 3-4k so should i decrease the float height or increase?!?!?! the factory pro site says float settings are backwards so if i want less gas in the bowls i should go up with the float say 14-15mm?!?! or is the other way around?! i suck with carbs

tks!!!!!!!

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Old 02-18-2010, 12:14 PM   #2 (permalink)
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You are right, increasing the float level, reduces the amount of fuel in the carbs and leans it out and yes that would be the right way to go if you are running rich. I don't know if I would agree with your symptoms being rich. It could be rich and experimenting may be the only way to know. I think before I tried messing with the float level, I would try resetting the mixture screws down to 2 turns, which would also lean it out.

My first concern would be your float bowl vent for a naked bike. Is the float bowl vent hose connected to the airbox?
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Old 02-18-2010, 12:26 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I'm far from being experienced with carbs, but I know ZX7r bikes have very special air inlet tubes. I can see you removed em from your bike and maybe you can have a part of the issue there...
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Old 02-18-2010, 12:27 PM   #4 (permalink)
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You are right, increasing the float level, reduces the amount of fuel in the carbs and leans it out and yes that would be the right way to go if you are running rich. I don't know if I would agree with your symptoms being rich. It could be rich and experimenting may be the only way to know. I think before I tried messing with the float level, I would try resetting the mixture screws down to 2 turns, which would also lean it out.

My first concern would be your float bowl vent for a naked bike. Is the float bowl vent hose connected to the airbox?
well when i set the mix screws i started at the factory setting of 1 3/4 turns and went up in 1/4 increments passing 2, 2 1/4 and it ran best at 2.5 so i left it

and yes i did the kleen air or whatever you call that mod, all the emissions crap is gone and the bowl vent hose is hooked to the air box.

intake tubes aren't gone, just cut short enough to link the air box to the frame. doubt this is an issue as the bike is a moster above 3k

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Old 02-18-2010, 12:33 PM   #5 (permalink)
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OK, if it runs better as you turn the screws out then it is more likely running lean and since, I think, 13mm is as high as you want to go on the float level, I think I would try shimming the needles. If you haven't heard about that, you could try a search. there are a whole bunch of treads with some great how to's on here. If you have adjustable heighth needles it's even easier. Of course I could be wrong, but only experimenting (or a dyno) is going to tell for sure.
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Old 02-18-2010, 12:45 PM   #6 (permalink)
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One other thing I feel like I should mention. I know you said you cleaned the carbs, but if you read through a bunch of threads here you will find a lot of people have attempted to clean them then cleaned them again and sometimes as much as half a dozen times before they actually got all the crap out of all the right places. I certainly don't mean to insult you hear, it's just that there are some very hard to clean and very tiny jets in there, some of which will cause your exact symptoms.
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So EZ, a caveman can do it.
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Old 02-18-2010, 12:58 PM   #7 (permalink)
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First off, nice looking bike!!!

I second rileydeed on the carb cleaning. To properly clean carbs, they need to be bathed/agitated in a carb washer. Your low end problem could be from orifices in the pilot jet circuit could be partially clogged still. It only takes one good 45 minute cleaning in an agitator with the right chemical. By raising the needle in this case, you are just going to move the problem to a different spot in the RPM range.
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Old 02-18-2010, 01:12 PM   #8 (permalink)
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By raising the needle in this case, you are just going to move the problem to a different spot in the RPM range.
Thanks for agreeing with me about one thing, but I respectfully have to disagree with you about this. If the problem is not dirty pilot jets, which is certainly a possibility, then it needs a different fuel curve from stock. Which would make sense, because of the ram air being removed. I think there are only a couple of places to do this, fuel level, pilot jet size and needle heighth. Since the float level is already at 13, I think the needle height is the next best experiment. Actually, if the current pilot jets and passages are clean, a size bigger pilot jet could also be the solution.

Hope this helps without just further confusing the issue.

And plus 1 to nice looking bike!
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So EZ, a caveman can do it.

Last edited by rileydeed; 02-18-2010 at 01:14 PM.
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Old 02-18-2010, 01:35 PM   #9 (permalink)
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thanks for the help so far.... so i shouldn't mess with the floats then?! and shim the needles instead?! i'll do some searching on needle shimming.

as far as how i cleaned the carbs. i basically took everything i could out shot every hole i could find with carb cleaner and compressed air over and over and over. i don't know what those are called but the brass things the needle goes into. those had green tarnish on them so i let them and everything else i could take out soak in carb cleaner over night. then i lightly polished those pieces with 1,500 grit sandpaper just to get them nice and smooth and remove the left over tarnish. i shot carb cleaner in them till all those tiny little holes were spraying cleaner out. these carbs were clean to begin with, the mix screw holes still had the caps on them. and this bike ran fine when i bought it before i tore it down to fighter it. i went through the carbs cause i'm ocd like that, but now i feel like i got them pretty close with just a little more to go.

i've had these carbs on and off like 10 times already lol. but i'll pull the tank tonite and check my plugs and see how they look. any other tips or ideas please keep them coming!!!!
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Old 02-18-2010, 01:58 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolerthanethan View Post
and this bike ran fine when i bought it before i tore it down to fighter it.
If it ran fine before you took all the ram air off, then it may take some tinkering to get it back right. Since you have the bowl vents connected up to the airbox, I would say, it can definitely be tuned. And the only reason I say not to mess with the float is because I thought 13mm was minimum. I could be wrong about that? I don't know the specs. Isn't it 13 to 15? If so you don't want to go lower than 13 or you could end up with a flooding problem.



This image shows where the pilot jets are and if your flat spot hessitation is at slight throttle, I think you may need to increase this by one size. If the problem is at harder throttle then I'm gonna say needle heighth. The thing is the needle height doesn't really cost anything and can be undone if it doesn't work out so that is where I would start. Thing is it's all guess work until you change something and see what happens. And please post up whatever you find. It helps the next guy.

BTW, who's Ethan and how the hell do we know you're cooler than he is.
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I much prefer being on 2 wheels, more maneuverable and quicker than the pack so I can snake through the stupid. --Shifty1
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So EZ, a caveman can do it.

Last edited by rileydeed; 02-18-2010 at 02:02 PM.
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Old 02-18-2010, 03:06 PM   #11 (permalink)
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i know what the problem is set it at 2.5 turn floats at 15 mm and buy a damn jet kit you have a kn filter and pipe you will never get it right without the jet kit your mixture will never be right even with just the kn installed it will run like crap on the low revs
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Old 02-18-2010, 03:17 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I would again follow rileydeed with the pilot jet resizing. I don't want to sound mean, but you should never put sandpaper to carb internals - it doesn't sound like you messed them up, but taking too much off is just like altering the carbs. To clean out the small holes in the emulsion tubes you should use a welding torch tip cleaner. You can buy them at any weld supply for a couple of bucks. They are very small pipe cleaners with ridges to remove impurities. There is also one small enough to fit in your pilot jets for cleaning. I would start with the pilot jets - make sure they are clean by pushing the tip cleaner through them. Go up a size and see what happens. I tend to not mess with float bowl heights if it was working before hand. And of course mess with the needle height, as mr. rileyreed suggested, since it doesn't cost much and you can easily change it back. I have lots of experience with Ram Air, but not much with street fighters - removing the tuned ram air inlets. Installing a proper jet kit would also be a big help. Hope this helps you out! Good Luck!

How hard was it to fit that ZX10 tail?

Last edited by signpimp; 02-18-2010 at 03:19 PM. Reason: More info.
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Old 02-18-2010, 08:46 PM   #13 (permalink)
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no sand paper to carb parts. marked it on my notepad lol. i rode the bike around some tonite. you know i have no tach so i was guesstimating what rpm the problem is at. anyway now that i've riden it more its a slight part throttle hesitation. i'm talking about if i slightly pull the throttle back less than an 1/8 it does it as soon as i go 1/4 its gone. this is also in every gear. Honestly i really dont see the big deal with the intake tubes. when i bought the bike it had no fairings already and no tubes and ran fine. so i still dont think they it. i dont see what an extra 8 inches of plastic could do or not do. i know kawi designed the whole intake/carb system with it but still. if anything i'm prob getting more air in there. i know i might need a jet kit but am trying to avoid the $100+ expense at the moment since im unemployed. so they called emulsion tubes good to know. well either way they are clean i made sure of it. still havent pulled the plugs to check them out. but i will and let you guys know. now i'm kinda stumped on the floats. but interested in the pilot jet thing. can i buy them w/o having to get a whole jet kit? by the way i pulled them out and cleaned them as well. tks guys

oh and thats a 03 636 tail not zx10. i used the 636 sub and seats as well. super easy to modify it. cut upper tabs off the sub and re-weld them shorter. i also had to modify the rear part of the stock gas tank where it bolts to the sub, also had to be welded.
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Old 03-22-2010, 12:51 AM   #14 (permalink)
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alright finally pulled the plugs......






so the bike seems more on the lean side specially cyl. #4. #2 looks perfect imo?!?! so pulled the damn carbs back off for the 100th time and went to 12mm on the floats instead of the 13mm. bolted the air box and everything else back on and it's worse. seems the 12mm float level moved the problem up higher in the rpm range. sounds better at slight throttle though. so should i go 14mm on the floats? or mess with the idle screws passed the 2.5 turns? and the shimming of the needles is just putting washers on them basically? trying to do everything i can before forking over money for new parts. i still haven't synchronized them. bought the parts to make my own sync tool but haven't had a chance. could the sync help out the situation any?

like i said before the bike was running hard anywhere passed slight throttle but right at that cruise/very slight throttle i have that damn hesitation sucks to cruise around town in. any help will be greatly appreciated!!!!!!!

Last edited by Coolerthanethan; 03-22-2010 at 12:55 AM.
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Old 03-22-2010, 09:03 AM   #15 (permalink)
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OK first, I don't think that your plugs are showing lean. They do look quite different from one to the next so a sync could very well help.

Second, it could be rich at one point in the range and lean in another. The only way you can really use plug color to diagnose a bad spot is if you put in a new set of plugs and run the engine exclusively in the rpm range and throttle position you are trying to diagnose and then shut the engine down, pull the plugs and look at them. I hope that makes sense. It does look like it’s due for a new set BTW.

Also if you raised the float level and it made it worse, then by all means I would try the other way. I don’t know what the specs are for your model, but I saw Blackedout7r recommended 15mm, so 12 sounds a little high, but like I said IDK. Maybe one of the great ZX7 guys we have here will have something to add.

And the method for raising the needles has been documented here. I will try to find the a link for you if I get a chance. Or search "shimming needles".
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So EZ, a caveman can do it.
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Old 03-25-2010, 01:16 PM   #16 (permalink)
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thanks for the input and i see what you're saying about the plug color. those plugs have maybe 200 miles on them, i just put them on last month. i pulled the carbs back off and went with 14mm on the floats today. still runs like crap but now it seems to be up and down the entire power band. So i guess 13mm it is on the floats. and that's what the manual calls for by the way 13 +/- 2mm. would a video of the bike running help you guys out at all?

i'll try and shim the needles and see what it does, gonna hit radio shack for the washers tmrw. if nothing i guess i'll park the bike till i get a job and can afford a jet kit. oh and i pulled the pilot jets back out today and sprayed them with carb cleaner and compressed air a bunch of times. did the same to the pilot passages and the emulsion tubes too. everything seems clean.

Last edited by Coolerthanethan; 03-25-2010 at 06:29 PM.
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Old 03-25-2010, 06:16 PM   #17 (permalink)
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by the way is anyone running passed 2.5 turns on their air/fuel screws? or is 2.5 the max you should go?
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Old 03-25-2010, 07:19 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I have read on here of people going up to 4, but if it was me and I had to go past 2.5 I would go with a larger pilot jet. On the other hand trying more turns is a good way to experiment. Just my opinion.
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So EZ, a caveman can do it.
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Old 03-26-2010, 01:34 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I have read on here of people going up to 4, but if it was me and I had to go past 2.5 I would go with a larger pilot jet. On the other hand trying more turns is a good way to experiment. Just my opinion.

well got an assortment of washers at radio shack #2-#10 i'm guessing the #2's are the ticket?! how many you think i should start with? i'm gonna pull the carbs back off today and set the floats back to 13mm which is where the bike ran the best so far. and was thinking of shimming the needles while i'm at it. so 1 or 2 shims?!?!
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Old 03-26-2010, 02:43 PM   #20 (permalink)
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The hesitation you describe is common on these bikes, one of the old school (read back when they were new) ways to fix this was a thin flat washer under the stock needle. It does work, I have done it, you would be better off with a jet kit but if funds are low this will get you by. I think we used to use a 1/32 washer so you want to use just 1.
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