hi Kuba,

you have got a nice bike & interesting project here
good luck !!! and keep pics & updates coming

Milos

 

Hello Milos

I will keep this thread up to date.

For now I need to make a drawing for 12-1 trigger wheel, which will fit into stock trigger wheel mounts to make it work with stock crank position sensor.
If sombody will be interested in such conversion I will post all drawing etc.
For interested in only carb to EFI conversion (with stock ignition system) I got a really simple and relatively cheap solution.

BR

Kuba

 

Great looking bike! I will be following closely!!

 

ive seen this before....dude that did it had...a hell of a time because there was lot of extra stuff he had to fit into the frame

 

It's not so difficult mod as it appears to be.
The biggest problem will be fitting fuel pump and arranging new fuel system. I think that I will go on with external pump to avoid fuel tank modification.
I know that it's a lot of work, but I'm sure that it's worth of it

Kuba

 

How are you handling the lack of a cam position sensor? Batch fueling? How will will compensate for puddling if it is batch?

I am most of the way there on my ZX9R. It is much easier as the ZX9R engine is essentially the same as a Z1000. The 99 ZX9R has a cam position sensor. I'm using the Z1000 harness, CDI, pickup/star, etc., with ZX10R throttle bodies. My biggest gap was an air box, but found out the Z1000 guys use pod filters when they upgrade to ZX10R throttle bodies. I'm just now adding the external fuel pump.

 

Yes, as a first step, or call it Evolution 1, I will use batch fueling (1+4 and 2+3) and wasted spark ignition.
For a proper cylinder trim i will use thermocouples placed in each exhaust manifold runner to make a proper injection trim (yes. batch injection with separate channel for each injector to trim them)

Can You explain what do you mean about "puddling"?

Which pump do You plan to use, I'm lookning for some to use... and most of them are quite big... :crying:

BR

Kuba

 

Batch fueling works ok on car engines, especially with a common plenum, but RPM works against you on a motorcycle engine. It is why you find two injectors per cylinder on bikes like the newer ZX6R.

On the off-cycle cylinder, the fuel sprayed down the intake, the valves are closed, so the fuel losses suspension and falls to the bottom of the port in a puddle. When the valves open the puddle is pulled into the cylinder and cannot aerosol, so is hard to burn. It is mostly pushed out the intake and hurts economy and power. It is one of the key reasons people have not been able to get batch FI to work on a motorcycle. People who have completed it made less power that a carbed bike did.

If you could create a common plenum manifold with a single throttle body and plenum injection it could solve the issue.

 

That's completly untrue. One of the basic rules in fuel injection is to spray the fuel when the valves are closed. It help to vaporize the fuel, and you're avoiding overlap fuel losses... But, it's working only on low RPM. On higher RPMs when the injector opening times are getting longer, injectors stays open for 70-80% of engine cycle. So the sequential injection does not have any advantages on high RPMS.
I've done lots of cars especially Formula3 and Formula3000 cars, where engines revs higher than in motorcycles, without "puddle problems"

This is beautiful. I'd love to turn my baby into a fuel injected beast... God knows I'd rather screw around with an ECU rather than having to adjust screws on the carbs... Definitely subscribing to this thread. Keep up the awesome work, Bad One!

If you're interested in fuel injection conversion, I would be happy to help you!

BR

Kuba

 

This is beautiful. I'd love to turn my baby into a fuel injected beast... God knows I'd rather screw around with an ECU rather than having to adjust screws on the carbs... Definitely subscribing to this thread. Keep up the awesome work, Bad One!

 

You wrote that you have also a quick / cheap version for people which think wasted spark etc is good enough. Could you throw some details in?

I also thought about converting a l modell. The usual way would be to borow a GSX-R Injection but i also heard the Injection of a ZX6 would be a good solution because the spacing should be close to perfekt. The 6 is smaller but rev`s higher. So i think it might be true...

 

As I remeber well ZX6R got smaller diameter of throttle bodies... But it needs to be confirmed.

Yes I will try to describe how to convert a carb to with MicroSquirt or Ecumaster DET3 Fuel Implant.
Maybe during weekend I will start it.

BR

Kuba

 

Baaaahaaaa

 

Hush, you!

 

I have my dream bikes.

 

You have a lot of guys dream bikes! LOL.

 

I own my dream bikes. Love the ZX7R and RR. Ride both of them as much as possible. I get the statement about "museum pieces" but who would NOT want to own at least one of those?

 

No by that statement I meant that they are so perfect and so much $$ Ill be afraid to ride them... If somethin g breaks or something happens those parts are huge $$, if you can actually find them.

 

Hello


God save the postman! New parts arrived!

It's good to get back home, when you know that new engine management system is waiting for you

Finally I've decided that I will not proceed with UMC-1... I've waited for 3 weeks for answer from NoLimitsMotorsport with no luck, so I wouldn't recommend them. The only resonable solution was to order Ecumaster EMU system.

You can read about it here: http://ecumaster.com/en/products/engine-management-unit

I've done few car that are running perfectly with this ECU.
Dozens of features, great support, free firmware updates, custom options on request - no more words to say.

To make my fuel system working well I've also orderd Tomei fuel pressure regulator. Cheap and flexible - with really small dimentions and weight.

I've also got few additonal parts

- New set of exhaust manifold nuts (copper plated)
- VW connector for Bosch LSU4.2 wideband oxygen sensor
- Set of short levers for brake and clutch (ofcourse in green colour!!!)

Now I need only to wait for next weekend to get into my basement and loose myself in tuning

I think that I will find some time to prepare base calibration for ecu - there'a a lot of things to do:
- prepare configuration for crank trigger
- prepare calibration for senaors (iat, clt, map, tps, crank, vss, clutch etc)
- configure right outputs in ecu
- prepare a injection and ignition staging according to crank pattern.

Keep your fingers crossed... to make me less busy in work


BR

Kuba

 

O

 

Oh'o the memories of turning the key on a GPZ turbo just to hear the petrol tank shrink...I'M not certain but i think that was Bosch injectors/mitsi ECU...Enjoying this .

Turbocharging a motorcycle will be a next year project


BR


Kuba

 

hey Kuba,

nice shiny bits you have got for yourselves ;-)

where are those nice shorty levers coming from? as for the rest of your goodies - I have only misty idea of what are they for (except for the ECU)

as you are saying - fingers crossed !!!

btw. don't forget about my BMW pls ......

 

Wiring works started

Hopefully I will finish wiring loom this weekend

I know that it looks like a mess... but I will update photos after work is done.

BR

Kuba

 

Time to start the party!!!

Wiring is 80% done. All electrical work is finished (relays, fuses etc)
Today I've started to configure outputs and sensors in EMU.

Hopefully I will start the engine with new management system in this year...

BR

Kuba

 

sure hope there is a walkthrough.

 

Watching this with much interest as injection will be my next thing to do on my 7r.

 

I will prepare a nice pinout schematic, drawings and basemap for stock ZX7R to make this conversion "user friendly"
I think that with "tutorial" that I will prepare, anyone can do this modification.

BR

Kuba

 

I can't wait to see your tutorial on this EFI conversion! Would it be possible to run a power commander V instead of the ECU you're running?

 

Only if you have another ECU that drives the fuel injection. Powercommanders are piggyback computers used to trim fuel maps. They don't actually drive the fuel injection system. If you used all the wiring and ECU, etc from a Hayabusa you could piggyback the PCV and trim the fuel. The newer Hayabusa ECU's can be programmed without the PCV though, so you can lift the entire FI system out of a 'busa and mount it in a ZX7 provided you drill and mount the cam position sensor in the head or valve cover.


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Or so I've heard.


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It is what I am doing on my 99 ZX9R, if I would ever get off my ass to finish it. I guess it's what happens when you have 19 bikes, most of them in pieces. I am running a complete harness from an 03 Z1000 including the ECU. I will be adding a Power Commander III (PC-V is not available for that model) to adjust the fuel for my setup that is inline to the ECU.

 

Hello Guys!

2fat2fly is right - Powercommander can not be use as standalone engine controller, it's designed to cheat stock. In my opinion each piggyback sucks. It only cheats stock ECU by changing signal from sensors or by changing directly fuel injectors opening time. Both of these operations have disadvantages...
For example: you're changing MAP sensor (manifold pressure sensor) signal to make your bike run richer (after intake change, exhaust change etc) So you need to icrease MAP sensor reading to increase amount of injected fuel. Ok after this adjustment AFR (air to fuel ratio) is ok but... Let's go deeper into ECU. MAP sensor tells ECU about engine load. The main rule is: Higher Load - Longer Injection Time, but there's a second rule: Higher Load - More Ignition Retard (less ignition advance). Remeber that: by changing any of sensor signals you got influence for fueling and ignition!
Petrol engines are not diesels! Petrol engine got more sophisticaled control strategy. Generally in diesel engines more fuel injected = more torque and more power. In petrol engines NOT!
The most tricky part of petrol engine tuning is ignition map and acceleration enrichments.
Ok, but let's go back to PowerCommander (I used to call it PowderCommander, because tuning engine with PC is like healing leprosy with baby powder). Newer PC's got option for direct control of injectors opening time. Some will say that it's super hyper technology - no it's not.
It's similar strategy that use LPG systems in cars. They calculating "new, better" injector opening time basing od previous cycle injection opening time... Hopeless - it will kill your acceleration enrichment. This way of tuning is good for steady state work of engine. You can "draw" a perfect dyno graph but... where's neck crushing throttle response?
For a carburated egnines there's a few options:
- Option 1 - Buying a watch with barometer and driving with backpack full of nozzels, jets, needles etc. I know it from my own expirience. I did lot of tuning work during hillclimb races on older carburated formula 3 and 3000 cars. They run ok... but they never run perfect.
- Option 2 - Leave stock ignition system and use fuel injection standalone systems like Megasquirt or Ecumaster DET Fuel Implant. They will allow you to tune your AirFuelRatio properly with all corrections (baro, temp etc)
- Option 3 - Use fully standalone engine control system - Here You got FULL CONTROL over the engine. It's not so hard to teach how to tune engine. With this kind of control system you can realise lots of usefull features like (flatshift, launch control, traction control) and when You tune properly your engine you will realise that money spent on standalone ECU was a good investment. Options available in standalone ECU absole you form using quite expensive additional devices like shiftlight, ignition cutter for full throttle shifts etc.

Hopefully I cleared few doubts about engine control systems

BR

Kuba

 

This is a very smart man and he's right on everything he's posted.



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Damn, thanks for clearing up the whole PowderCommander thing up... Suppose that tutorial ain't gonna be comin till after New Years..?

 

I've started holidays today, so I think that I will start this tutorial on monday.

WHat do You think: It will be a better idea to start separate thread or include it in this topic?

BR

Kuba

 

I would start a separate thread. And then I would break it down into separate components in that thread such as the wiring and where to run it and how to hook it up. Then another one for the mechanical components for the fuel injection, such as throttle bodies, fuel pump and running the fuel lines. And of course we cannot forget the fuel pressure regulator and fuel filter that you would use in this system. Maybe include some Photoshop or Microsoft paint edited pictures that show specifically where to lay out the parts for the novices among us that would like to try this. Something I think would be especially critical would be any alterations he made to the fuel tank. And maybe a pattern with scale drawings showing what to cut and where to cut along with the piece you make to install in it if you were doing an internal fuel pump installation.

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