off/on throttle snatchyness : Kawasaki ZX Forums: Kawasaki Ninja Forum

phatphil · 09-24-2009, 09:51 PM

is it just me or does anyone else get a little "clunk" or driveline lash off/on throttle. doesnt matter how smooth, it just does it sometimes. much better at higher rpms but i dont want to always be revving high and its killing my gas milage. its unpredictable other than it is less so at high rpms. even in 6th at relatively higher speeds 140+ in a straight line, i cannot seem to roll off and back on without a little clunk from the back end. chain slack is good. so i dont think ivan thing is going to help me. 08 model. anyone else find this so at all? maybe i have a bad injector? of course, dealer says there is no problem and they could not replicate during test drive. any other ideas to check very welcome. i could always be smoother but should it be that hard even in straight line? if i drive relaxed and conservative and slow with off/on throttle there is no prob but during aggresive riding where i want to be most smooth it is pretty much impossible. 11,000kms and been same since new. adjusted cable pretty much every possible way. dealer also adjusted cables. also asked dealer to adjust tps so always open a little but not sure if they actually did anything or if this is even possible (guy from power commander suggested i try this). if anything, seems to have hurt my gas milage but been trying to use higher rpms which is opposite of one of the reasons why i bought this bike. does anyone think a power commander would help? i read very few who found throttle to be snatchy so wondering if its me or my bike or i i can eliminate it.

jollyroger · 09-24-2009, 10:44 PM

"asked the dealer to adjust the tps"-You mean the bike's THROTTLE POSITION SENSOR?Unadjustable my man.Shifting on mine,well-different situations,different results.Going at an aggressive upshift,she pops right in with no feel except MORE power and torque.I don't usually use the clutch on those kinds of acellerations.The switch to the higher gear is so quick and the engine and tranny just go right in and keep accelerating.Using the clutch on slower transitions will at times be a bit "jerky" if I don't match the speed of the shift with the clutch engagement.At high speeds-at least with mine-I can hit say,140 or so then toe shift into 6th and continue accelerating very smoothly(without clutch,only a "microsecond"of letting up on the throttle-just a tiny break in the power to make the shift).If I don't pull the clutch ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE BAR,she shifts much quicker and with less jerk,if you could call it that.But it just depends(on mine)how I'm shifting,with or without clutch,and what speed and rpms I'm shifting at.I did notice that NOT pulling in the lever all the way helped a lot in transitioning through the gears.Something you might experiment with.But when you do it like that,the toe shift must be very quick.You can't do it lazily.

phatphil · 09-24-2009, 11:21 PM

it's when totally off throttle and back on. i just cant seem to get back on the throttle after i close it without driveline lash 100% of the time. most of the time it rolls on smoothly but i am just always expecting lash every time i get back on the throttle from closed position, for whatever reason. dealer says snatchyness cannot be 100% eliminated from fuel injection...and they did charge me to adjust tps so i assumed it was possible....can i be the only one with 08 and cannot ride smoothly 100%? i am pretty sensitive and the little driveline clunk drives me nuts. think about trying one of these:

http://g2ergo.com/shop/catalog/G2-Ta...Ninja-265.html

but it seems it might be fuel injector related and doesnt matter how smooth back on throttle from totally closed position during certain range of parameters....

tampastockman · 09-25-2009, 04:44 AM

Hey Phat P my 08 does the same as yours, I too search for the perfect smooth transition from one gear to the next. Sometimes I achieve the perfect shift, other times its as you describe. I believe it happens primarily when the shift is too slow and drawn out. A quick shift with less release on the throttle seems to be what gives me my best shifts. I am goin for the 600 mike service now ( actually in a few minutes after I quit looking at the computer

) and will pay more attention to shifts and see if I can offer something more constructive.

T Stock

jollyroger · 09-25-2009, 07:14 AM

Well Phil-that throttle tube deal might just work.Guess ya could give er a go!If you've got a manual-here-pg3-117-"caution" inset.You might show em that next time you take er in?Usually,sharp throttle response is a result of cable free-play-but you said that was good.If she's got no freeplay-she's gonna be abrupt.

phatphil · 09-25-2009, 07:55 AM

shifting is good. it is when in same gear going from totally closed to rolling on. the throttle tamer makes initial throttle application easier to modulate but it is a little jerk from what seems like fuel injection delay. so...wondering if anyone else has this. could be: rider skill (i am quite careful with smooth throttle application but cant be smooth enough in aggressive tight twisty and worse in rough pavement or at high speeds), or my bike (maybe slightly clogged injector, tps problematic). will try fuel injector cleaner and if nothing will prob ask dealer again but i am not sure they will be helpful as they say their test ride couldnt find an issue....then i guess i will have to try this throttle tamer thing....ive read some fjr owners found it to work for them....

jollyroger · 09-25-2009, 12:30 PM

Ya-okay Phil-yes.Went for a ride,thought about what you were asking.Tried several different shifting ways.I see what ya mean about the "hesitation"deal during the shift and throttle application.It's not injectors-that's my opinion.Not the throttle free play either.Seems to do it when there's a hesitation with the clutch,shift,and throttle combined.Doing them quicker seemed to reduce the "lash",if that's what it is.But I did notice it for sure.I'm not worried about mine-she shifts just fine(even with a tad of lash).Higher rpm,speed,clutchless shifts are immediate and "lash free" if I could say it that way.One thing I did notice since I've had mine-fresh oil seems to help with the shifting properties for me.As the oil wears and gets used-she will shift less smoothly.

Jeepers · 09-25-2009, 01:28 PM

I'm guessing this is a stock bike? does it happen when you slowly get off the gas or when you close the throttle all the way? when you close it the fuel injection shuts off and that causes the bike to dive. A PC can add fuel at the closed position and the "bump" stops allowing the bike to continue it's cruise to the next shift. at least it did on mine

phatphil · 09-25-2009, 06:43 PM

it is NOT the shifting. it is in constant gear, open throttle, close throttle completely, then open throttle. when re-open throttle....bike shift feel is not an issue at all...thanks!

Eugenio_SS · 09-25-2009, 06:45 PM

I got used to it... after all, it has lots of power... so it wants to bite when you go from off throotle to any input.
I still find it very smooth compared to other bikes... which will have more of that.

sharkey · 09-26-2009, 12:52 PM

The ZX14 has programming that shuts off the fuel flow when you roll off all the way. It then turns it back on as you roll on. For me it's usually an irritating bump after braking and starting to accelerate into a curve. I'm pretty sensitive on the throttle but I can't completely control it. I'm working with a tuner right now. He's going to put fuel enabled in the 0 throttle setting. This should tell the ECU that the throttle isn't completely off.
I'll post how well it works in a few days.
Otherwise Ivan has a device which is supposed to disable the fuel shut off function.

phatphil · 09-26-2009, 02:04 PM

yes, exactly....i was thinking too of ivan retard eliminator but i also have the characteristic in top gear at high speed semi-aggressive and i think ivan only works in lower gears. so i think it has to do with fuel shutoff at 0 throttle openings and then a little jump when opened. are you using power commander? i am on the verge of ordering a g2 throttle tamer....

sharkey · 09-26-2009, 02:40 PM

The Ivan item I'm referring to is the TRE006a. Although they call it a TRE (timing retard eliminator) I don't think it really is. The TRE008 model, or removal of the flies is pretty much needed for the '06 & '07 models. The function was corrected on the '08 and newer making a TRE unnecessary. (Although they will try to tell you it will benefit you.) The 006a model is aimed most specifically at disabling the fuel shut off function when throttle goes to 0 open. Although the throttle tamer sounds good, if it works as stated, I don't think it will solve the surge problem. It's not a sticky throttle tube which is causing the problem.
I do have a PCIII on my bike. Like I said I'm trying to solve the problem with the programming of the map. Only if you had a source to get the ECU flashed, and eliminate the shut off command, would you have the best cure.
I should add, however, that whenever you change one thing you usually need to change something else to compensate for it. Or at least you have to compromise. For instance, if you add a TRE008 you get better throttle response below 3000RPM but you loose the indication of gear selection. It just reads 6th all the time. That's a compromise.

jollyroger · 09-26-2009, 03:10 PM

Sharkey-that you?-Blue07 here-it's gonna be worked out you know where-so don't make any hasty decisions-ya?Hell-not too many "senior citizens"out there ridin the Biggest,baddest sportbike ever produced!!!!(well,I'm a senior citizen anyway!!!)

( the REAL housecleaning is started as we speak!)

sharkey · 09-26-2009, 05:10 PM

Yea it's me. Is that what "Senior Member" means? I guess I qualify!
Seems like a lot of issues here we've hashed over before. I'm glad to share some of the resolutions here. I think the technical level is much higher over there. I'll be back after the exorcism.

sharkey

ezmport · 09-26-2009, 05:16 PM

i have heard once you switch to synthetic oil it will smooth out your shifting. ( i haven't switched yet) however just heard that once..

jollyroger · 09-26-2009, 06:55 PM

It'll smooth out the shifting ..........till it gets used again.Actually,that's how I determine my oil changes to be honest-when the shifting goes south(well,never really goes south,just kinda gets notchy).Usually around 3000 miles,maybe a bit more.10-40 Kawachem-full synthetic-that's what I use anyway-But there's plenty other good oils out there.One gallon,one filter-that's how I do mine.

Mike P · 09-26-2009, 07:01 PM

Go ride an FJR and then come back and see how little you think the 14 is snatchy.

I notice it on the 14 but it's nothing in comparison to the FJR I just sold. I can deal with the little amount that I have now.

ezmport · 09-27-2009, 08:50 AM

jolly, thanks for the info bro.... i am going to switch on my next oil change. i use regular oil and it seems i have been struggling with my shifting lately. it maybe getting close to oil change. but i can't wait to see the difference in shifting.

jollyroger · 09-27-2009, 09:06 AM

Well-I wouldn't expect some kind of "shifting miracle" LOL!!But you will see a difference-I always do anyways.