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Old 06-22-2010, 02:00 PM   #41 (permalink)
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In my 2009 ZX-6R I only put in 91. Thats what the manual calls for and that's what my wallet feeds it.
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Old 06-22-2010, 02:11 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Octane is not all its cracked up to be. These bikes run just fine on a 50/50 ratio of E85 alcohol and regular pump fuel. I wish I could run straight E85
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Old 06-22-2010, 02:52 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Fuck ethanol


I wonder if ethanol free fuel from the marina will help in the high temps..
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Old 06-22-2010, 03:06 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Fuck ethanol


I wonder if ethanol free fuel from the marina will help in the high temps..
I dont know Fish, but ethanol seems to junk up injectors and carburators way worse than pure gasoline! I try not to ever get gas with that shit in there!
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Old 06-22-2010, 03:09 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Rocketman14 View Post
I dont know Fish, but ethanol seems to junk up injectors and carburators way worse than pure gasoline! I try not to ever get gas with that shit in there!
Thats what I meant. The marinas have straight gasoline with no ethanol at all.
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Old 06-22-2010, 03:21 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GreenPeace View Post
Octane is not all its cracked up to be. These bikes run just fine on a 50/50 ratio of E85 alcohol and regular pump fuel. I wish I could run straight E85
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Old 06-22-2010, 03:26 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Ethanol is so corrosive it can't be pumped through a pipeline, it has to be shipped in stainless steel tanker trucks. It eats away at anything rubber or paper (gaskets, O-rings etc) and sucks water out of the atmosphere. In states where the farm lobby is not strong, there's no ethanol in the fuel. If it weren't subsidized by the government, nobody would buy it because by the time you refine and transport it, it's more expensive than gasoline and causes more total pollution despite its slightly cleaner final burn. The only good thing about it is that it's made here and if they ever figure out how to transport and refine it on the cheap, we'll be buying Ethanol from third-world countries just like crude oil.
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Old 07-07-2010, 06:29 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenPeace View Post
Octane is not all its cracked up to be. These bikes run just fine on a 50/50 ratio of E85 alcohol and regular pump fuel. I wish I could run straight E85
I've read two studies comparing E85 to gasoline for vehicles capable of running it. Here's one from 2007. In terms of both horsepower and emissions they are about identical, b/c the E85 ethanol vehicle consumes ~25% more fuel over distance. So cleaner, but still outputs almost the same amount of atmospheric goop. I'd give the technology 'gimmick' status for being on par for pollution, but poorer on MPG. These results are consistent with what I learned from riders who had converted their bikes to run alcohol: jet sizes had to be greatly increased.

One positive about E85, it's renewable.

Back on topic. Here's the label from my ZX-9R fuel tank. It should apply to all 2000-2003 12.2:1 compression ratio ZX-9Rs.

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Old 07-07-2010, 10:24 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by e1_ZX-9r View Post
I've read two studies comparing E85 to gasoline for vehicles capable of running it. Here's one from 2007. In terms of both horsepower and emissions they are about identical, b/c the E85 ethanol vehicle consumes ~25% more fuel over distance. So cleaner, but still outputs almost the same amount of atmospheric goop. I'd give the technology 'gimmick' status for being on par for pollution, but poorer on MPG. These results are consistent with what I learned from riders who had converted their bikes to run alcohol: jet sizes had to be greatly increased.

One positive about E85, it's renewable.

Back on topic. Here's the label from my ZX-9R fuel tank. It should apply to all 2000-2003 12.2:1 compression ratio ZX-9Rs.

oh fuck. I think this happened to me. I filled to too much. now it takes longer then normal to start.
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Old 07-08-2010, 08:39 AM   #50 (permalink)
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so i have been running 93 in my 7. but last tank i put 89 in it it seems to be doing a little smoother... does anyone know what is recommended for this bike?
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Old 07-08-2010, 09:18 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Hammerhead View Post
I noticed when riding in Montana last year that the range of available octane was lower. Normal regular here is 87 while there it was 85. Maybe less octane is required at altitude?
that is correct.
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Wait... Wouldn't higher octane burn cleaner, there for your carb wouldn't be as dirty when it sits?
nope
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Originally Posted by Rocketman14 View Post
Well as usual you are absolutely right RR! Low octane fuel burns much quicker, so if the engine is designed for 87 octane, you actually lose performance and mileage by using premium fuel! Premium fuel should only be used in high compression engines to prevent pre ignition!
correct again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 90zxr750 View Post
so i have been running 93 in my 7. but last tank i put 89 in it it seems to be doing a little smoother... does anyone know what is recommended for this bike?
ive been running 87 in my 05 for years now.

its listed in the manual.




a short read....




Quote:
Octane rating


Righto, so this tends to come up a bunch (especially in the Spring-Summer when a new crop of riders come along) and I am sick of repeating myself over, and over, and over, and over, and over again. People have all sorts of ideas as to what octane rating correlates to, lots of wives tales are out there, and frankly after enough B.S. saturates the social fabric who knows what’s right and wrong anymore. Quick Summary: Octane has no correlation to power. I don’t care what your Uncle Rick or your best friend whose worked on cars since the 1930’s has told you. They’re 98.7% wrong and you’re all gullible for believing the hype.



It’s my belief that a large portion of people that are stuck on things like octane having any ties to engine power will likely cover their eyes and click wildly until the browser closes then to read what I have to say, because ignorance is bliss… If not:

Part of the problem with people’s misconception of octane rating lies with how fuels are named. The fuel companies don’t advertise “87 octane” or “92 octane”, they advertise “Regular”, “Plus” and “Supreme” gasoline. Naturally if I wanted the most out of an engine I’d lean towards something labeled “supreme” over “regular”… Talk about a scam…

So allow me to back the truck up a wee bit and explain what octane rating means. Allow me to proffer a little “concept check” if you will. There are two common ways to “test” a fuel’s octane rating. A special test engine is used which can run a variable compression ratio. The engine is then tested with isooctane (a type of additive used in gasoline) which is determined to be 100 octane. Under a variety of controlled circumstance the engine is run. Then using a grade of gasoline to be tested, its results run in the same conditions as isooctane are compared. This “percentage” of knock resistance as compared to isooctane is its “Research Octane Number” or RON…

Hold up a minute: Knock resistance? You mean power right? No I don’t. Power has no bearing to octane rating. None. Nada. Zilch. The fuel being tested is only tested to it’s resistance to knocking, or detonation. That is ALL AN OCTANE RATING IS. I’ll elaborate to where power comes into play, and why higher octane fuels are desired in a minute.

So the RON rating is used pretty extensively throughout the world. The lowest “octane rating” you’ll see in most of the world is 91 octane. Take a look under your seat where Kawasaki recommends the type of fuel to be used: Its 91 RON… So here’s a big point of confusion: In the USA the RON system is not used. Instead the AKI rating (Anti Knock Index) is used. Instead of simply using RON, the formula is (RON + MON)/2. Ie: it’s the average of the RON rating of a fuel and the MON rating. MON ratings are much lower than RON ratings as the testing is a little more “realistic”. Instead of the test engine testing the knock resistance of a fuel at 600 RPM, with MON the speed is increased to 900 RPM, with a pre-heated fuel mixture, and variable timing. Compared to isooctane fuels will most always demonstrate a lower MON rating then RON.

So perhaps a fuel is tested at a 91 RON rating and the same fuel tests at an 83 MON. In Europe that would be advertised as 91 RON. In the USA it would be sold as 87 octane (the average of RON and MON). READ THE PUMP if you think I’m pulling such ideas out of my ass.

That (R+M) is short for (RON + MON).

It has literally been right in your face forever. If you’re in Europe you’re not getting higher octane gas when you buy 98 octane, you’re getting 93 AKI rated fuel by the way. If you brag to your American buddies that you’re getting higher octane fuels, then you should feel foolish. :p

Righto, so with any luck that should clarify the 2 fuel ratings used around the world and should shed light onto the “91” octane required for your motorcycle is really 87 octane AKI in the US. For the performance aspect, this just never sits well with people: Use the lowest octane fuel you CAN for MAXIMUM performance. What does octane do for fuel’s performance?

Well, the higher the octane the SLOWER the fuel burns. How come high performance vehicles use slower burning fuel? Good question:

The more you compress air/fuel (high compression ratio engines, supercharged engines, turbocharged engines, etc.) the more volatile the charge becomes. When an engine reaches a certain RPM the timing is advanced so the spark fires long before the piston reaches TDC (Top Dead Center) on its compression stroke. The reason for this is it takes a moment for the chain reaction of ignition to take place. Once the charge really starts firing the piston is usually just past TDC on the downward “power” stroke. The closer you can get explosion to TDC, the more complete of a burn you’ll get and the more the power you’ll create… So if you crank up the cylinder pressure with boost or higher compression ratio, the previous ignition specs might be wrong. With the higher cylinder pressures there is a greater risk that the charge will ignite and hammer back down on the piston while it’s still trying to move upward. This is a tremendous amount of heat energy we’re talking about which has no where to go, but to transfer to the piston (bad news bears), wreaks hell on performance, and will frankly kill an engine in short order. High performance engines therefore can run lower octane fuels, but have to back the timing off a bit to prevent detonation.

So “high performance” engines run into the problem where they could back off timing, but fast burning (lower octane) fuels will burn up even faster (due to the high cylinder pressures) and you have less time to which this is happening (power loss). Higher octane fuels allow the timing to remain advanced, but they aren’t as liable to detonate when the piston is still on its upward path. So it’s actually harder to get them TO fire, but will be able to burn for longer once they do fire. It’s a fine juggling act which higher octane fuels allow the end user to walk the fine line of detonation and yet get the greatest burn and consequently maximum power.

Here’s where the concept that octane = power comes from. So high performance engines use higher octane fuel, so its GOT to be the fuel that’s the secret to the added power. Simply dumping in higher octane fuel will actually LOSE you a bit of power as the slower burning charge takes longer to get ignited and won’t burn nearly as completely on a lower performance engine. You can get a bit of power if you advance the ignition timing to allow for a more complete burn, but you still won’t get as complete of a burn with the lower cylinder pressure as you would with a lower octane fuel. Then with higher performance engines the higher octane fuel isn’t allowing an engine to make more power per se; it’s allowing the engine to run safely while making maximum power. The computers on a lot of them will retard the timing if the wrong fuel is used and so lower octane fuels in those applications will lose power (as that’s not how the engine was ideally designed to run), but they will tolerate it. So remember that: Use the lowest octane fuel as recommended. This way you can push the detonation envelope and make the most amount of power. If your engine was tuned for a higher octane rated fuel, then use that octane rated fuel as to not lose any power.


Here’s an interesting Fifth Gear segment where they tested octane boosters. This is an unbiased test and the results were uniform… Uniformly bad news for octane boosters
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Old 07-09-2010, 12:47 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Awesome find there Nevada

That would explain what I'm experiencing, although I haven't been able to verify whether 87, 89, 91 or 92 have a definitive MPG advantage as of yet. I think there are too many variables in long distance rides. Anyway, after tuning my two bikes for my base 4,500' ASL, I noticed that they completely stopped pre-ignition/detonating under load. Later, I leaned the jetting out on one as an experiment and fueled several tanks with 87 octane and 91. I saw no difference and no advantage. Fearing engine damage and the marginal expense on 5g of fuel, I went back to the regular jetting and 91 for the summer.

But now that I know what (R+M)/2 means, I think I can safely experiment with 89 and 91 to see if one provides an advantage over the other.

Again thanks for the explanation, that was a great read.
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At the track she's said to be outclassed, but on the street, she reigns unmatched. She's the only big-bore canyon carving hypermiler I know of. -- Picture gallery, K&N air filter, SuperTrapp Aluminum Racing Series exhaust (Made in USA), ZG touring shield, & otherwise stock.
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Old 07-12-2010, 06:30 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Fuel answer and new questions

Regarding fuel octane. my 01 j model has a 90 octane minimum, that is minimum. Under 90, it runs like a complete bag of crap. Now here is the bad news. I am trapped in canada. yes, thank you hs and border dudes, they don't like single while males any more. In much of small town canada, the fuel is a fraud. you think you are getting 91, you pay for 91, and you get 87 instead. this is canada wide. the fuel is mafia controlled and the place is totally rotten. there is only one reliable fuel - royal dutch shell - gold. this is a real 91 octane. ALL OF THE OTHER 91 OCTANESare usually 87, unless you luck out and gas up on the 3 days per year the government tests the tanks (with prior warning) and your bike will run like a bag of crap, especially if you have a stingy mikuni carb like mine, (50 miles a gallon if I don't honk it). there is a modification i have heard of on other zxs, called ted's 4 degree timing change, or something. has anyone else used this on a zx6? i know if works on a zx11, to make it run properly on 87, and thus able to handle all the fuel frauds.

next question - anyone out there super moto ed a zx6 so it could handle backroads? How, and how much money? My australian buddy is heading to argentina soon. Any one out there ready to drive to south america? I cannot go till next spring.

Next question - has anyone put a DID 520v chain and sprocket assembly from japan on the ZX6? I can get these cheaper than factory, and they are supposed to last a long, long time, even though they are lighter. Anyone have the experience? Please let me know. I would save a couple of hundred bucks a year.
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Old 07-12-2010, 06:34 PM   #54 (permalink)
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octane explanation

in response to the octane explanation, first account for pump fraud. Canadian law requires an octane level of 90 at the supreme tank. the law is irrelevant. laws are only useful if they are enforceable. if you notice no difference between 87 and 91, you are probably running the same fuel- 87. THis is how the fuel refiners account for higher taxes. this is straight from convenience owners - all tanks filled up by the same, 87 pump truck. so, before you ask what the problem is with your bike, first ascertain if the fuel is actually 90 or not.
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Old 07-12-2010, 07:11 PM   #55 (permalink)
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octane rating is resistance to burn. higher octane is more resistant to burning. so if u use to high a octane. there is a good chance you will have unburnt fuel in your exhaust. but if you use to low you can get preignition and detonation. which = bad news bears. so use what it runs best on. but never use "racing fuel" like turbo blue. racing fuel has lead in it. the lead will coat your o2 sensors and any other electo stuff inside your bike. so your computer will get jacked up readings and it will run like shit.
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Old 07-12-2010, 07:29 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Old 07-12-2010, 07:30 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Old 07-12-2010, 07:30 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Old 07-12-2010, 07:31 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Old 07-12-2010, 07:32 PM   #60 (permalink)
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