Fly removal

[Biedmatt]

Decided to remove the secondary butterflies. I've read how it really uncorks the bottom end and felt it was probably worth trying. If ever there was a job that requires the correct tool, this is it. I tried to remove the first screw with a standard #2 Phillips and managed to just destroy the screwhead. They have some serious locktite on those fasteners. I got the buggered fastener out with my heavy duty needlenose pliers by grabbing the circumference of the screw head and then I ordered a Japanese Industry Standard (JIS) +2 driver. Man what a difference this driver made. JIS is not designed to cam out like a standard Phillips. The final seven screws came right out, no heat necessary to loosen the locktite. For those who are comtemplating this mod, buy the JIS driver. This is the one I bought: http://www.ikaswebshop.com/hodcogrjis2d1.html

[Copper Man]

Biedmatt- I know the C14 comes with a 3 year warranty. By taking the flies out, is the warranty in jepordy of being voided? Just curious. I don't have my Connie yet(Spring Baby!) but am curious if this farkle would void it out. Also, once you used the right JIS+2 screw driver, how long did it take to do the job?

Copper

[Biedmatt]

The change could void the warranty if Kawasaki could prove the modification caused the failure. Federal law requires the manufacturer to prove a mod caused the failure for them to void coverage. Can envision a pissing contest, but other dealers have performed this directly for their customers. Basically it lets in more air and a Power Commander III (http://www.powercommander.com/eng_default.aspx) revises the fueling map to prevent a lean mixture from damaging the engine.

Got my PC3 from http://fuelmotousa.com/home.htm. They even programed it with the map needed for my bike (stock except for the fly removal). Cost was $270 with shipping. I'm told they have the best prices and they also develop their own maps. With your invoice number, they will send you revised maps, no charge, if you make additional changes to your bike. Installation of the PC3 was about 1/2 hour and it's completely plug and play, it plugs directly into the exisiting harness without any need to cut and splice wiring. Downloads are easy too, laptop computer and USB connection. I uploaded fuelmoto's map into my laptop so I had an archived copy.

The fly removal requires the side fairings, seat and the fuel tank removed. Much easier than it sounds, maybe 3/4 hour. Siphon fuel from your tank before removal to make it easier to handle. Run the hose down the left (clutch) side of the tank since the fuel sending unit is on the right side. Once the tank is off, there are two cast aluminum cover plates, remove three 10mm bolts each and you are then looking directly into the throttle bodies. Use the JIS screwdriver to remove the flies and close back up. Download the shop manual (http://www.zxforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7996) for better instructions for the fuel tank removal.

Saw a dyno map showing torque jump from 70 lb-ft to 83 at 3000rpm and maintains more power throughout the rev range. It narrows to +5 lb-ft at 7000rpm. biggest improvement is 3-6000rpm. http://home.comcast.net/~pw.2006/dyn...-custommap.jpg This is stock vs revised fuel map vs flies out/revised fuel map.

[JamminJere]

Copper,

I've done a few fly removals on the C14 for a couple of owners now. With two people, doing the job, you dont need to remove the fuel tank completely. I would recommend that the tank is almost empty though, Once the tank is loose, there is enough fuel hose and wiring to lift the tank up a few inches and turn it to the left or right, exposing one of the cast aluminum covers at a time. Remove the cover, and you'll see the throttle plates. I heated the tip of my JIS screwdriver and then let it heatsink thru each screw head to loosen the lock-tite they put on the small screws at the factory. I also have a strong magnet attached to the screwdriver to keep the screws stuck to them. The plates are aluminum, once the screws are out flip it on its edge and pull it out with a pair of needle nose pliers. Replace the cover on that side of the frame, have your helper slightly turn the tank the other way to expose the other door and pair of flies.

I too have a PCIII from Jamie at fuelmoto. Although I have put my bike on a dyno and even with a "zero" map running on the bike (PCIII doing nothing, bike running stock map) my bike never had an air/fuel mixture that was close to being lean even in the low rpms of a 5th gear idle to redline run. Where I live I'm only about 145ft above sea level roughly.

Here is my post from an earlier thread on this topic, you can search all topics on the forum ... search "secondary butterflies"...

YES guys.. FuelMoto is the way to go if you have to have a PCIII I've had mine on from them for a month now, Flies out for the last two weeks.

Here is something to remember about the tune... Since we are NOT changing the air filter to a K&N or something(coz they aren't out yet) and if you change the muffler to an aftermarket one,(AreaP, Muzzy, Two Brothers) you are still leaving the two cats in the midpipe. So essentially the engine is still huffin and puffin the same CFM of air thru it... with a little increase due to the aftermarket pipe. My engine on the dyno made more hp, more tq, had the shortest sampling time to redline, AND had the best a/f mixture on the graph throughout entire rpm range even with the flies out. It was almost an ideal a/f mixture, on the STOCK Kawasaki mapping! (in other words with the PCIII set at a zero map).

So do you need a PCIII to make sure you dont run to lean?. Not at this stage of modification I dont believe. Will you see an enhancement to running different maps with a PCIII at this stage of mod? YES. whether the enhancement=cost ratio is there at this stage of the game, I'm not quite sure.

BUT, If you run a full exhaust replacement, (no CATS) or modify yours somehow (not recommended) and change the air filter or airbox configuration, THEN you need to have a PCIII to correct that change with more fuel for the added airflow you just gave the motor.

Another word on the tune, remember if you do all this and then take the bike to a dyno, have them tune it(about $150), or build a complete map for you (300 bucks usually) and then you decide to go buy a K&N filter when they are available and change it out... you just lost that 300buck tune coz the map will need changes then. You shouldn't head for the dyno tune(if you feel you need this)without all the mods done that you want to do.. .Then map it.

Without the secondary butterflies in the bike, which by the way do not inject fuel, but are the way I look at it, a computer controlled restrictor plates "helping" deliver the power and torque in the mid range more progressively, and predictably by opening the airflow to the main injector plates as the computer sees fit.. I know why Kawasaki did this for both the ZX and the ZG1400..

SALES!

They have to make the bikes powerband attractive to a larger group so they sell more bikes... Its not that the power increase from removing the flies is going to rip your arms out, but it will be more "light switch like" in the mid range and not as forgiving if you don't have a trained wrist for high horsepower motorcycles.

Is removing the flies for everyone? Problably not. Its all relevant to what you have always ridden and what you are comming off of before the purchase of this bike. If you're comming off a 600 or 750, and never rode anything larger, I would think it would be better to have alot of seat time on the Connie before you take the plunge.

Does the bike have enough midrange grunt for you? Thats the big question.

If you have ridden high hp bikes for years, and do alot of 2up riding, I think you would enjoy the increased torque down in the low and mid range that is found by removing the secondaries. I like the idea that when I twist the throttle, the bike is doing what I want it to do, now... not waiting for the ECM to dial up those secondaries for me after I put in the request for more power.. Almost "Microsoft-like" in the way the power comes on... Dial up throttle, "Are you sure you want to do that?" THEN it comes on.

Its not hard to remove them, You do need a few "special" tools. Mostly a #2phillips screwdriver with a point tip, not flatwith at LEAST 8" reach, the longer the better to get your hand away from the airbox. And it should be magnetic, or use one of those little extendable pen type magnets.

Remove the glove box, and both left and right middle fairings.. remove the 4 bolts holding down the gas tank. (Do this when the tank is almost empty) Get someone to assist you, You will not need to disconnect the tank, simply lift and twist it from one side to the other exposing the two round doors in the airbox. Remove the 3 bolts on the door you're working on and remove the door. From each door opening in the airbox, You'll see two injectors. While your companion is holding the tank twisted out of your way(the hoses and wires to the tank have enough slack) Take that long screwdriver and magnet and while pushing hard to keep the driver seated, unscrew the two screws holding each plate inside the injection. Some people have used soldering irons to touch the screw heads, heat them up to loosen the threadlocking compound on the screws. I had no trouble without doing that, but I made sure I was pushing into the scew as I twisted it out.. I know the scews looks too small for a #2 phillips, but trust me you cant use a #1, it just does'nt fit the head of the scew right and you dont want to bitch up the screw head getting it out. Mine came out straight forward with no complications. Use the magnet against the screwdriver or right on the screw to remove it. The screws and the shaft the plate is mounted on is steel and magnetic... The plate itself is aluminum. Just give it a little bump to lay it over and pick it out with a needle nose pliers. DO NOT open the throttle plates by twisting the throttle, and nothing will get down in there that you dont want there. :)

Remove 4 scews and two plates from each side, put the bike back together and go ride. You could do this and see a big difference in the bike without really changing the muffler or adding a PCIII. Its all in your preference.

Sorry this is so long but I felt if alot of us are going to start doing this, there was some info I felt needed to be posted on the topic.

And thats all I got to say about that...

See you on the road,

Jerry

[Biedmatt]

Originally Posted by JamminJere

Get someone to assist you, You will not need to disconnect the tank, simply lift and twist it from one side to the other exposing the two round doors in the airbox.
Jerry

Agree w/Jerry everywhere but here. At this point you are two vent hoses, two electrical connections and the quick connect on the fuel line from removing the tank and getting it out of the way. No additional tools required. Assistance from a friend is good, but for what you would pay to repair a damaged tank, or live with the scratch you may get, why not invest 5 minutes and get it out of the way? The correct driver makes removal a snap, but if it goes pear shaped, you can step back and take a breath without the pressure you feel to hurry up because your friend is standing there holding the tank.

[JamminJere]

Matt,

Agreed, if its your first time and you dont feel comfortable doing this, or as you said.. if things go pearshaped... sure I"d spend the extra 5 min or so to get the tank out of the way. But with the correct tools this is no big deal to do. The other bikes I did this way, with everything going smoothly... I dont think the helper held the tank for five minutes total, and we were bolting it back down. No scratches :)

I guess I should have mentioned that what I meant was you dont HAVE to completely remove the tank to do this, but if you are by yourself or not comfortable doing this mod it would behoove you to completely remove the tank.

JJ

[Flying Kaw]

Matt

Don't feel bad. I've seen more damage done to a metric bike with a non JIS screwdriver than you can imagine. People don't understand how critical the use of the right tool is.

[Wormgear]

I did mine alone by just moving the tank out of the way and left the fairings in place. Removed only the glove box. I could see where you could get a scratch that way but I didn't. I was very careful, or lucky or both.

[chi-gpz1100]

Originally Posted by Biedmatt

Saw a dyno map showing torque jump from 70 lb-ft to 83 at 3000rpm and maintains more power throughout the rev range. It narrows to +5 lb-ft at 7000rpm. biggest improvement is 3-6000rpm. http://home.comcast.net/~pw.2006/dyn...-custommap.jpg This is stock vs revised fuel map vs flies out/revised fuel map.

BM, glad my pics are still up (and not bandwidth limited like at other providers). Although it says so in the scan, it should also be noted that the dyno runs were done with an areap pipe for all 3 runs.

If any of you folks are in or near chicago and want assistance with this, I can help. I've assisted with one (my own), and partially performed another. If it involves drilling, you're on your own :)

[JIS]

Originally Posted by JamminJere

So do you need a PCIII to make sure you don't run too lean?. Not at this stage of modification I don't believe. Will you see an enhancement to running different maps with a PCIII at this stage of mod? YES. whether the enhancement=cost ratio is there at this stage of the game, I'm not quite sure.

Originally posted by chi-gpz1100
[br]One combination that hasn't been tried yet (not sure if it's been mentioned here, but has on the bikeland forum) is flies out + pc3 + stock exhaust. Or even flies out without the pc3 (since the bike runs rich to begin with). That I think would be the ticket if you want to maintain the sleeper quality of the bike.

So, is the PCIII actually required? I believe that Steve Wertheimer (aka FastestBusaAround) has warned against this mod without the PCII and the right maps.

The reason I ask is that I contacted Dynojet UK (who sell PCIIIs in the UK) and was told yesterday that "We have not currently released a power commander for the GTR1400, we are still in the development stage with the O2 eliminators to disable the twin O2 sensors on this bike. "

Thoughts gentlemen please.

[Biedmatt]

Originally Posted by JIS

So, is the PCIII actually required? I believe that Steve Wertheimer (aka FastestBusaAround) has warned against this mod without the PCII and the right maps.

The reason I ask is that I contacted Dynojet UK (who sell PCIIIs in the UK) and was told yesterday that "We have not currently released a power commander for the GTR1400, we are still in the development stage with the O2 eliminators to disable the twin O2 sensors on this bike. "

Thoughts gentlemen please.

The bike is rich from stock in the upper rev ranges. The Fuelmoto map in my PC3 actually reduces injector duration above roughly 6K rpm. With the flies out, you are adding much more air below 6K rpm (about where the flies are completely open, changes a little based on throttle position and gear selected). The added breathing capabilities is why the fly removal adds soooooo much power below 6K. Is it enough air to require the PC3? I can't answer since I do not have an O2 reading for the bike below 6K with the flies out, maybe someone here can answer that. The O2 reading is really the only way to confirm if you are too lean at that rev range. You could remove the flies and do some dynoruns as a test, this would decide the needs for the Euro3 compliant, closed loop ECU bikes.

Any information we have for stock fueling here in America is probably irrelevant for the configuration you have over there. We do not have the O2 sensor on the bike here in the USA. Your Euro3 requirements are stricter than the 49 state version I have. I can say that the PC3 adds injector duration below 6K.

I felt it was not worth the risk of a damaged engine for only $300. My decision would be to wait, or test your bike to determine your needs. Dynojet will surely have the O2 version ready soon I would think. On the (O2) equiped 2007 GSX-R1000, Dynojet has a plug to eliminate the O2 sensor and the PC3 runs an open loop program, so they can do it.

[JIS]

Hello Matt :

That's helpful. I have also received this reponse from Dynojet in the UK; they say :

Due to the different emission and noise regulations in the US the US spec bikes do not have O2 sensors, if you where to fit a power commander to a UK bike you would not have full control of the fuel injection mapping, because the ECU and O2 sensors would take over from the power commander and render it useless in certain situations.
We have the power commanders here in the UK, however until the R+D on the O2 eliminators is finished they can not be released, it is something we are currently working on and I will have a better answer for you next month.

I would not recommend sourcing a power commander outside the UK as this renders all warranties and technical support null and void, please read the warning on www.powercommander.com for more information.

Just to reiterate, Dynojet UK does not undertake work from the general public, we have a network of approved tuning centres around the country who I would recommend contacting regarding the work. Please visit http://www.dynojet.co.uk/tuningcentres.php?type=1 for a list of approved tuning centres.

So, although I had thought of buying a PCIII and map from Jamie in the USA I guess we in the UK will have to wait a while before going Flyless

John

[TheProf]

Nice research John, I was thinking about doing this mod myself and assumed we had the same bikes as those in the US - I should have realised that it couldn't be that straight forward and WILL end up costing us a lot more ££££ to carry out the same mods as the guys in the US.

That's put pay to my dream of a set of twin rear Muzzy pipes until Power Commander come up with a solution for us in the UK.

I wonder what the ZZR1400 guys (in the UK) have been using for the past couple of years? I guess that the previous model ZZR14 didn't have O2 sensors? I bet the new 08 model does though, for Euro-3 (strangulation) complience.

Oh well.......roll on summer, and a UK type PCIII with modified twin pipes - we all have dreams.

[TheProf]

I've been thinking - which can be a dangerous thing!

If we pull the flies and have an aftermarket exhaust/muffler fitted (AreaP, 2Bros, Muzzy etc) will the O2 sensors on the UK-spec bikes be able to modify the mapping in the ECU to cope with the mixture changes, through the rev range? Bearing in mind that the cats and standard air filter are still fitted, therefore there will only be minor adjustments to engine breathing. Any of you tech guys have any ideas about this.

I assume (dangerous again!) that the standard ECU uses a number of different maps depending on gear selection and then these maps are modified by the feedback from the O2 sensors?

The truth is out there.......somewhere??

[FBRR]

" will the O2 sensors on the UK-spec bikes be able to modify the mapping in the ECU to cope with the mixture changes"
Short answer NO.
The amount of "learning" in a closed loop system is merely to correct for production variation. When you pull the fly's you have made some major changes to the Volumetric efficiencies ( V.E. ) tables. V.E. tables are what "schedules" the fueling to the injectors in a Speed density system. ( Which is what the C14 system is as it does not have a Mass Airflow Sensor) If you pull the fly's you need a fueling device or you run the risk of running too lean at those part throttle point where the secondary butterflies were active!!!

[FBRR]

One further thought for those folks NOT IN the States!!! We have a law called the Moss/Magnison act! That act states a manufacturer cannot void a warrenty just because a user added modified parts. The manufacturer MUST prove the modification caused the failure. ( I'm sure this is not the case in the UK!!)
Also I would not want to be in the postion of being a "layperson/or non-engine engineer " disputing what caused a failure, if I did not know HOW the TOTAL system worked and/or the modifications effect on said system. How could you defend your modification. How do you KNOW the fuel you added will work with other ECM protection modes? How about the effect of changing/ or NOT changing spark advance as a result of increased airflow?
Fuel is also critical to proper spark advance and "knock". Just because the modification is NOT at Wide open throttle does not mean ther is no effect. Some "closed-loop" fuel control can and does impact open loop. ( U.S. c14's are always open loop, while the UK bikes use closed-loop fuel control, ie O2 sensor feedback. So experiences in the U.S.A. does not directly correlate to the "CLOSED-LOOP" bikes of the UK!!)

You get my point. As I have pointed out other boards, I'm not preaching DO NOT modifiy your engine. I'm merely attempting to shed a little light on the arguement you COULD have at warrenty TIME. It's always better to know in advance than after the fact. That way you can make an informed decision on modifications.

[lockwood]

So does that mean that the fuel map loaded by Jamie at Fuelmoto as being ok for a standard muffler but with the flies removed, is good to use on bikes with C02 sensors?