Catalytic Converter Removal

[dhtmbowen]

I would really like to be able to remove the catalytic converter and fit a quality end can like a Remus hexacone.

Other than the Muzzy system where you have to fit their center stand and junk the standard one:

Does anyone know how to remove the catalytic converter?
Ideally I would like to keep it in good condition so that I can put it back when I need to.

My reasons for wanting the cat out of there are:
1. Taking it out will liberate a LOT of power especially in the mid range (my ZX10R jumped 8bhp at the top and 15 at 7,000)
2. Long levity. I have heard that these cats are only good for 20-25,000 miles. I'm doing 30,000 a year.

Help?

[Frans]

Did anybody removed the 2 cats in the collector pipe? Current mods are; 2 Bros slip-on, Power Commander from Jamie @ Fuelmoto, BMC filter and flies removed. Any advantage to remove them?

[Flying Kaw]

The easiest most cost effective way is install a 2007 or earlier ZX14 header like I did. Then your system will be "catless" and you will see some serious gains.

http://www.zxforums.com/forums/gtr-1...html#post68220

[dhtmbowen]

Hi Kaw;
You said you had to make some modifications; what were they?
ZX14: is that what we call the ZZ-R1400?
Also once you got the headers on was it straight forward to fit the end can(s) you wanted?
Regards
Dave

[kwackerken]

I hate to be thought of as a Killjoy...........BUT I thought that a Catalytic Converter was added to the bike in order to reduce the toxicity of the emissions from the engine.

On that basis, it seems irresponsible to remove it and subject all around us to pollution and possible health risks.

As someone with Asthma who used to work in Central London, I can vouch for the detremental effect of exhaust fumes.

Why not just enjoy what is by far the best bike I have ever owned in 30 years!

[Flying Kaw]

Bowen - yes the ZX14 is the ZZR1400 in Europe. The header is a "bolt up deal". No mods there.

However if you read the thread I posted at the Concours website you can see what I did to get the mufflers to fit and the centerstand to work. The ZX14 pipes from AreaP wouldn't clear the shaft. So I took the bike to a local muffler place and had custom mids built. It cost $100 (US dollars). Then I painted them black ceramic. They look very nice.

I had to modify the centerstand. You can read about it are the Concours.org website under AreaP Duals.

[dhtmbowen]

Originally Posted by kwackerken

I hate to be thought of as a Killjoy...........BUT I thought that a Catalytic Converter was added to the bike in order to reduce the toxicity of the emissions from the engine.

On that basis, it seems irresponsible to remove it and subject all around us to pollution and possible health risks.

As someone with Asthma who used to work in Central London, I can vouch for the detremental effect of exhaust fumes.

Why not just enjoy what is by far the best bike I have ever owned in 30 years!

I don't know where to start:
Catalytic converters are made from cadmium; one of the most toxic elements on the planet.
Manufacturing cats is massively damaging to the environment.
Recycling cats is a nightmare we are storing up for ourselves - you can't bury them they'll poison the water table - you can't melt them to recover the cadmium because it sublimes and enters the atmosphere - they have to be heated in a controlled environment with all sorts of nastiness - it just goes on and on.
By far the biggest effect on asthma sufferers from vehicles is soot from diesel engines - has anyone noticed the clouds of black smoke out of diesels and wondered why no -one does anything about it?
Diesel soot is a massive causer of smog and ingested particulate - mostly into the lungs which causes asthma, lung cancer, etc.
N.B. the number of lung cancer patients in the uk continues to rise although the number of smokers and those affected by passive smoking continues to fall.
Next: you would be amazed to learn how small a proportion of our UK pollution is down to internal combustion engines of any type - its currently < 5% most of the rest being power stations.
A well set up bike engine produces very little in the way of unburnt hydro - carbons but those it does produce - once the engine is hot pass through the cat anyway.
Bottom line: you should say 'thank you' for saving my cat instead of destroying it over the next 30,000 miles and another 'thank you' for not driving a diesel car in central London.

[kwackerken]

[quote=dhtmbowen;68447]I don't know where to start:
Catalytic converters are made from cadmium; one of the most toxic elements on the planet.
Manufacturing cats is massively damaging to the environment.
Recycling cats is a nightmare we are storing up for ourselves - you can't bury them they'll poison the water table - you can't melt them to recover the cadmium because it sublimes and enters the atmosphere - they have to be heated in a controlled environment with all sorts of nastiness - it just goes on and on. The Cat is already manufactured so no more damage to the environment can occur in that regard. If what you say is true, let's start a campaign to stop the manufacture of Cats.
By far the biggest effect on asthma sufferers from vehicles is soot from diesel engines - has anyone noticed the clouds of black smoke out of diesels and wondered why no -one does anything about it?
Diesel soot is a massive causer of smog and ingested particulate - mostly into the lungs which causes asthma, lung cancer, etc.
N.B. the number of lung cancer patients in the uk continues to rise although the number of smokers and those affected by passive smoking continues to fall. I agree with all the above. It doesn't impact on your removal of the Cat though. That's like saying "I can break the law because other people do"!
Next: you would be amazed to learn how small a proportion of our UK pollution is down to internal combustion engines of any type - its currently < 5% most of the rest being power stations."Any reduction is welcome and important. Percentages are meaningless. What matters is what steps you and I take, not what others are doing.
A well set up bike engine produces very little in the way of unburnt hydro - carbons but those it does produce - once the engine is hot pass through the cat anyway. They can't pass through your cat because it wson't be there!
Bottom line: you should say 'thank you' for saving my cat instead of destroying it over the next 30,000 miles and another 'thank you' for not driving a diesel car in central London

[Flying Kaw]

Ken

Sorry you have asthma. My grandmother died from it. However I do know from her battle it had nothing to do with exhaust...diesel or otherwise....and much to do with POLLEN. Asthma is essentially an allergic reaction. Your body may be allergic to exhaust. Her's was allergic to pollen and in the end it got her. I dunno....maybe we should "outlaw" pollen....or peanut butter....or cat dander since so many people are allergic to these things. Maybe we should outlaw any and everything that could possibly be deemed offensive to any single individual. I fear that is where this freedom hating planet is indeed headed. But I digress.

Originally Posted by Frans

Did anybody removed the 2 cats in the collector pipe? Current mods are; 2 Bros slip-on, Power Commander from Jamie @ Fuelmoto, BMC filter and flies removed. Any advantage to remove them?

Indeed CAT removal will facilitate more power. Is it significant? I suppose that depends on your idea. With the TBR, PC3, and stock header with CAT intact I tuned the bike up to 142 rwhp and 95 ft-lbs. I tried to drill the the CAT out from the OEM header but that sh!t is harder than the hubs of hell. So I gave up and did this:

2006 ZX14 header (OEM) - it's catless - eBay $50 or $70 can't recall
Area P dual slip-on exhaust for ZX14 used - eBay $255

After installing the catless exhaust and re-mapping the fuel the bike gained from 142/95 to 146 and 97 ft-lbs. Of course I did not install duals for power gain only. I just love they way they look.

You may be able to get the cat ot of the OEM header...but it won't be easy. And in the end I feared I might tear something up in the attempt.

[kwackerken]

[quote=Flying Kaw;68592]Ken

Sorry you have asthma. My grandmother died from it. However I do know from her battle it had nothing to do with exhaust...diesel or otherwise....and much to do with POLLEN. Asthma is essentially an allergic reaction. Your body may be allergic to exhaust. Her's was allergic to pollen and in the end it got her. I dunno....maybe we should "outlaw" pollen....or peanut butter....or cat dander since so many people are allergic to these things. Maybe we should outlaw any and everything that could possibly be deemed offensive to any single individual. I fear that is where this freedom hating planet is indeed headed. But I digress.



Cody, Thanks for your sympathy, but it is misplaced.

I have Asthma and Hay Fever but both are controlled by [different] drugs and have absolutely Zero effect on my life.

I only mentioned Asthma to illustrate my point that in London, the minute I came above ground from the subway I had restricted breathing due to the fumes/pollution.

Many people (not me) have severe breathing difficulties. If Government scientists have determined that Cat's help, Governments have legislated for them, and Motorcycle Manufacturers have gone to the trouble of manufacturing and installing them, I feel strongly that in order to respect those affected by exhaust fumes (everyone to some extent) we should not remove the Cat's. To do so gives motorcyclists in general a bad name and will add further to the [unjust] negative publicity we already receive.

[Flying Kaw]

Maybe...I dunno. Plenty of "cage pilots" do the same thing. Doesn't mean it's right. But just because "the government says" doesn't mean it's wrong either...on a whole variety of issues. Personally I am sick of the damned government treating us like children dictating our every move in life. It's as if they are "mummy"....acting as if they can protect us from every possible risk in life.

I just wonder where it will ever stop. The government is constantly dictating to people what they can or can not do in the name of "the good of the whole". Individual rights per se are meaningless. You basically have no rights as an individual any more because WHATEVER you do ...literally any and everything you do...can be interpreted to infringe upon some one else rights. If you piss your are polluting my drinking water. If you breath you are filling the atmosphere with green house gases (CO2) thus causing a melt down! Your very existence is threatening everyone else. So what's the solution? Pass more laws? Ban everything?

It seems that is where mankind is headed.

The world is going nuts out of fear. I'm just along for the ride.

Peace brother

[Frans]

Thanks Flying KAW for the info on the cats, I was a bit concerned about damaging something in the system. The gain is not significant, so for now I will leave it in place. Hopefully locate ZX14 headers. There is lots of debates about the pollution from vehicle, but the modern motorcycle engine is tuned for optimum performance, so very little unburned gasses leave the exhaust system. Of more concern is the old bangers smoking along our roads.

[dhtmbowen]

The point about Cats damaging the environment is not "oh we've made it already so the damage is done" its the fact that used ones have to be disposed of and new ones made to replace the old ones: the life of cats is not indefinite nor is it that long on typical motorcycle cats which is one of the reasons I want to look at removing my cat before it becomes an issue.

As for the government says we need one so it must be true line: ARE YOU MAD?
This would be the same government that told us Saddam Hussein could launch biological weapons at us within 30 mins would it?

As it happens I do know quite a bit about the advice that was given to our government and the EEC concerning cats, the environment and vehicular emissions. The commissioned white papers recommended that cats were not introduced as the net effect is massively detrimental but they were introduced anyway.

I'm sorry you suffer from asthma but its got sod all to do with me. As Kaw says its an allergic reaction to particulate ingestion: which isn't what a cat is designed to help with. Cancer on the other hand due to partially burnt hydrocarbons is which is why Cats are such a terrible idea given that cadmium ingestion pretty much guarantees the subject will die of either nervous system degradation or cancer.

If you don't believe me (and this is the wierdest thing) you will find all the information you need on the government websites.

[ducati996tom]

Mine good friend Roland and I, just removed the Butterflies and added the BMC filter with a power commander III (pre-mapped). I had already installed the 2 Brother carbon fiber can. WOW! It's much quicker. It feels more like my Ducati 1098s. That was my goal...get more torque and still have the comfort of the Concours. Mission accomplished! We did the conversion in about 4 hours having never done this before we can do one in 2 - 3 hours... I bet, now. As for the cats in the header the're still there. Someone will build a race type header for this bike eventually. That sould help alot the get the peak HP up even more. The mods we did helped the mid range torque and HP most after about 7,000 rpm there is not alot of noticable effect. It just feels more like a sport bike in the lower rpms, now. That's where most of the every day riding occurs anyway, right.

[ducati996tom]

Originally Posted by Flying Kaw

The easiest most cost effective way is install a 2007 or earlier ZX14 header like I did. Then your system will be "catless" and you will see some serious gains.

http://www.zxforums.com/forums/gtr-1...html#post68220

How much difference in HP and torque does the catless header make?

[johnc]

[edit] Technical details

Cross section of a Metal-core ConverterThe catalytic converter consists of several components:

The core, or substrate. In modern catalytic converters, this is most often a ceramic honeycomb, however stainless steel foil honeycombs are also used. The purpose of the core is to "support the catalyst" and therefore it is often called a "catalyst support". The ceramic substrate was invented by Rodney Bagley, Irwin Lachman and Ronald Lewis at Corning Glass for which they were inducted into the National Inventors Hall of Fame in 2002.
The washcoat. In an effort to make converters more efficient, a washcoat is utilized, most often a mixture of silica and alumina. The washcoat, when added to the core, forms a rough, irregular surface which has a far greater surface area than the flat core surfaces, which is desirable to give the converter core a larger surface area, and therefore more places for active precious metal sites. The catalyst is added to the washcoat (in suspension) before application to the core.
The catalyst itself is most often a precious metal. Platinum is the most active catalyst and is widely used. However, it is not suitable for all applications because of unwanted additional reactions and/or cost. Palladium and rhodium are two other precious metals that are used. Platinum and rhodium are used as a reduction catalyst, while platinum and palladium are used as an oxidization catalyst. Cerium, iron, manganese and nickel are also used, though each has its own limitations. Nickel is not legal for use in the European Union (due to reaction with carbon monoxide). While copper can be used, its use is illegal in North America due to the formation of dioxin.


This was taken from Wikipedia.

I have never heard of cadmium content in a catalytic converter. The reason harmfull emisions from internal combustion engines is a small contributor to total emissions is almost entirely because of the invention and use of catalytic converters. To make excuses for the removal of a cat is self serving garbage and to remove one is illegal. Be part of the solution, leave the cat alone!

[Boomer]

Once up to temperature a catalyser reduces the exhaust gases to pretty much just the following;
CO2
H2O
N2

It converts nasty gases like CO, NO2, NO3, H2O2 and a whole plethora of unburnt or part burnt hydrocarbons to the above "safe" gases.

That said, CO2 is still a greenhouse gas and in high concentrations can suffocate you, but it's nowhere near as dangerous as CO (Carbon monoxide) which kills in relatively low concentrations. The other nasties are NO2 & NO3 which dissolve in water to produce Nitric and Nitrous acids (these are the ones that used to rot your exhaust from the inside out) which cause breathing problems as the acids damage the linings of your lungs.
Unburnt and part-burnt hydrocarbons are carcinogens and some can form organic acids which are also nasty for your breathing.

Cats are a good thing but they are not the be-all and end-all as they produce more greenhouse gas since anything with carbon in it in the exhaust gases produces more CO2.

What is needed are leaner burning motors (invented but scrapped as they can't run cats), and optimally another way of producing the power for a vehicle. Until they come along the Cat is what we have.

Yes it damages the environment (most platinum, rhodium & palladium mines are open-cast and some of the extraction techniques are not exactly enviromentally friendly) but it prevents your kids from coughing their lungs up.

As with everything there is NO BLACK AND NO WHITE, only shades of grey. At the moment the internal combustion engine with a Cat is a lighter shade of grey than one without a Cat. Hopefully, that will soon change.

[Crazyninja]

The high level powers could give a shit less about the environment.
They want the $$$$$$ that is generated from the whole emissions control industry.

Most emission schemes produce more toxicity than they prevent. It's like reaching around your elbow to scratch your ass.

If you want to cut back on pollution - plain and simple ....Drive less, burn less fuel to begin with.

Plan your trips, etc. efficient routes.

cut back on how much bleach you dump down the drain and how much chemicals you use at work and around the house. It's that easy.