shifting with out a clutch...good/bad?

[BULLDOG]

I must be getting fuckin really old because I NEVER shift without the clutch nowadays, I just dont need too.

[KawaJAG]

How would the clutch experience any wear if you're not using it?

eastcoastmod, your need your transmission rebuilt. When your transmission is popping out of gear it's because the mating surface between the dogs and cogs are rounded off.

Here... check this...

The below picture shows the normal engagement of a dog tooth into a cog. In other words, this is a brand new condition. The green arrows show the direction of rotation and the red arrows show what direction forces are applied in at the mating surfaces.


This picture shows worn dogs and cogs. The mating surfaces have now become angled due to wear, which occurs at the edges first. Notice the direction the red arrows are pointing now... when you press those two mating surfaces together, the dog and the cog want to slide apart. Push (accelerate) hard enough and they completely disengage - it pops out of gear.


This picture shows a race prepped transmission. The mating surfaces have been purposefully ground so that when force is applied, pressing the mating surfaces together, the dog and the cog want to slide together. It would be extremely difficult for them to separate in that condition and cause it to pop out of gear.

[EazyMeezy]

Why do you think our bikes came with a clutch?

[JBearSVT]

Originally Posted by Hammerhead

-a nearly impossible job.

I can't believe I'm hearing that from someone with your experience!

[Hammerhead]

It just takes too fine a throttle touch to be able to rev it slightly at the perfect moment as one gear lets go and the other grabs. If you're too early, the stress will keep the shift from happening. Too late, and the gears will bang and grind. Going the other way, the drop in rpm that happens as a consequence of letting off slightly is mitigated by the gears themselves.

[JBearSVT]

Practice makes perfect

The question is, is it an exercise worth beating your tranny up to master.

[JBearSVT]

Originally Posted by EazyMeezy

Why do you think our bikes came with a clutch?

Because you have to start it and take off sometime, and eventually you're going to have to stop... it's nice to not have to shut the bike off when you do.

[eastcoastmod]

Is there a disadvantage to having it race prepped?
I will assume there must be some trade off or all bikes would come that way from the factory.

[Hammerhead]

If you look at Kawajags drawings, you'll notice that undercutting the dogs, as it's called, will also make the gears harder to disengage, which is the point, but will also cause the shift drum, shift mechanisn and forks to take more stress. Race motors are taken apart frequently to inspect and replace worn parts BEFORE they become a problem. If you have no problem doing regular teardowns, you can use undercutting to provide more positive engagement of the gear dogs. A race motor that slips out of gear at max rpm will frag itself instantly, so undercutting saves motors while burning shift parts. Just another example of how racing tricks can be useless on the street.

[marvy7491]

my fourth bike and its never caused me any problems,

[JBearSVT]

Originally Posted by Hammerhead

Just another example of how racing tricks can be useless on the street.

Or, you can flip your linkage for GP shift and pretend like some of us

[maikhorma]

I upshift without the clutch all the time, but most of the time it's not with WOT. I'm casually accelerating, close the throttle a bit as I shift, then ROLL back on the throttle and it seems to be pretty clean and smooth. Occasionally i'll even go 1-2, which is definitely harder to make it smooth, but it's not bad if i close the throttle all the way and roll on the throttle extra carefully at first.

I even downshift sometimes without the clutch, and never had a problem keeping it smooth. Trust me, I'm no expert race track rider, it just never seemed that hard to me. I start by closing the throttle, then just a tiny tweak on it (wouldn't even call it a rev), just enough to take the load off the transmission the instant you close the throttle back and shift.

So my question is.... Is it safe to say, if it feels and sounds smooth, then it's not hurting your transmission?

I've always wondered that, but when i think about it, most of the time when i do it, its just being lazy. So, if there is a chance that it can harm the trans, i might as well just pull the clutch in to be safe.

[Hammerhead]

If you do it right, it's no more harmful that a regular shift with the clutch. If it bangs, clunks or grinds, hard parts are colliding.

[bgjuliusZX7]

it is meant for WOT take offs. not for street traffic. i do it sometimes because it sounds sweet almost like you re on the race track but only when I know there are no cops or traffic around. if it is done write it feels smooth no grinding or anything. you f up and you will be able to tell the difference a lot of grinding. its not complicated at all just takes some coordination. best to be done around and above 8k

if you rev match downshift its possible to do with out the clutch but im not going to try it because most of the time your going to need to brake and downshift fast.

[Pizz]

On the 14, upshifting is smooth as silk without the clutch when going up from second. The 1-2 shift is rough unless you get the revs matched. I haven't tried clutchless shifting when accelerating hard (just haven't thought to try it).

[JBearSVT]

I'm not sure what the point would be when accelerating hard, since you barely have to breath on the clutch to make the shift at WOT not using it seems almost superfluous. Lots of people apparently do though, so...

?

[Pizz]

I usually only go clutchless when I am riding one handed and too lazy to reach down for the clutch.

[golden city ninja]

Originally Posted by JBearSVT

Or, you can flip your linkage for GP shift and pretend like some of us

indeed i how ever NEVER shift without the clutch. even when i take it to the drag strip. i have just timed it good enough that i can shift just as fast WITH the clutch as i can without.

[elgatovolador]

Originally Posted by maikhorma

I upshift without the clutch all the time...I even downshift sometimes without the clutch, and never had a problem keeping it smooth. Trust me, I'm no expert race track rider, it just never seemed that hard to me.

on that brother. The majority of my shifting is done clutchless, and it's actually gotten much smoother over time (a year and a half on this bike). I don't feel a thing, it's almost like an automatic transmission type deal, where I hardly feel the transmission changing gears. Maybe I'm just that good.. Jes playin'..